Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[Balloon]

I still think boosting SC dmg is a wrong design direction and it should be fixed. The reason why I said "not counting SC" in the calculation is because 1) It is still possible to have 2 DD doing double dark/light. 2) It's easier to calculate.

Either way, if anything I think boosting the SC dmg isn't a good design and it's certainly against the original design concept of this game. This concept works at lv 30 or 50 something when everyone TP slower, thus WS coordination for SC works. Now that we TP so fast, having multiple DD trying to do SC ended up doing less dmg.

Ignoring it isn't exactly fair when you want to throw around numbers like 65% and accuse others of lying about numbers. With a 16% buff to Skillchains and their capacity to perform self-sc and ws faster than most other jobs (Not significantly, but hey) you ignore a significant portion of why SAM is as good as it is. With that, I'd say 50% is a much more accurate ESTIMATE (which is what it always was.) than your 65%. The spreadsheet, unfortunately, cannot catch some of the idiosyncrasies of combat.

Two SAMs theoretically (though often not in reality) can line up their ws too, creating back to back skillchains. Something other jobs aren't as capable of.

I still think boosting SC dmg is a wrong design direction and it should be fixed. The reason why I said "not counting SC" in the calculation is because 1) It is still possible to have 2 DD doing double dark/light. 2) It's easier to calculate.

You don't want the game to be as mindless as FFXIV but you want the combat to have.. less mechanics like Skillchaining? Admittedly it's not implemented the best it could be at the minute, but there's incentive to try to at least line up skillchains when possible. It's easier than it once was with TParty being official now. On top of that, it's actually much less of a detriment to hold past 100tp now. I'd say the SC and WS updates were pretty well designed, in my opinion.

[Mitruya]

Personally, I interrogate/gear-check every job when I make PUG, including SAM and MNK, unless I know the ppl. I believe it's leader's responsibility to filter ppl.

I also interrogate/gear-check/baby sit BRD and WHM, to make sure they don't full time JSE harp.

If you think gear-check and interrogation is job discrimination, then it's not really the case.

I wouldn't invite a BLU nor DNC without 119 weapon unless they're a friend, so does SAM and MNK. DD spot is competitive enough, every /shout can get you 10 /tell from 119 DDs, it's very easy to find a rep. It doesn't matter if you're a SAM or MNK or BLU, no spot for a 115 DD unless it's a friend needing clear. This is barely a job issue.

I apologize again for a very not-well-thought-out post. I don't mind being asked, in fact it can be a learning experience to know what to work towards. I guess I was saying there have been times I didn't even get the chance to speak up for myself. I suspected it was more the job I offered, or like you say, they were spammed with so many /tells, it could be that someone they knew better got the spot. So now, I know better than to even respond at all, knowing I don't have "the best" to offer.
I've sort of forgotten the point I was trying to make at the time, perhaps it's just a lack of knowledge of what party leaders really want when they don't tell me anything. And seeing conflicting information here that says "yes you can clear Delve with so-and-so" and then having a different experience on my server.
Another derailment, but, I didn't want you to think that I saw gear-check = job discrimination.

[Afania]

Ignoring it isn't exactly fair when you want to throw around numbers like 65% and accuse others of lying about numbers. With a 16% buff to Skillchains and their capacity to perform self-sc and ws faster than most other jobs (Not significantly, but hey) you ignore a significant portion of why SAM is as good as it is. With that, I'd say 50% is a much more accurate ESTIMATE (which is what it always was.) than your 65%. The spreadsheet, unfortunately, cannot catch some of the idiosyncrasies of combat.

Two SAMs theoretically (though often not in reality) can line up their ws too, creating back to back skillchains. Something other jobs aren't as capable of.



You don't want the game to be as mindless as FFXIV but you want the combat to have.. less mechanics like Skillchaining? Admittedly it's not implemented the best it could be at the minute, but there's incentive to try to at least line up skillchains when possible. It's easier than it once was with TParty being official now. On top of that, it's actually much less of a detriment to hold past 100tp now. I'd say the SC and WS updates were pretty well designed, in my opinion.

Until spreadsheet can calculate skillchain DPS, it's still not exactly fair to calculate skillchain dmg in a DPS discussion. I'm not sure why 2 SAM can create back to back WS but other job can't? Most jobs has access to empy WS.

SC design is wrong simply because in a game design, 2 player hitting 1 mob shouldn't do less than 1 player, period. You don't need a masters in game design to know that.

[Balloon]

Until spreadsheet can calculate skillchain DPS, it's still not exactly fair to calculate skillchain dmg in a DPS discussion. I'm not sure why 2 SAM can create back to back WS but other job can't? Most jobs has access to empy WS.

SC design is wrong simply because in a game design, 2 player hitting 1 mob shouldn't do less than 1 player, period. You don't need a masters in game design to know that.

I will conceed that while it is true that under ideal circumstances 2 SAM do beat 1 SAM (Barely, TP overflow is basically the reason for this if I understand correctly), it is harder to set up. As I said, the skillchain system is not perfect. It's easier for one person to do that, but even with 2 you wildly underestimate how much skillcahins are doing. as the number goes up, the damage from skillchains goes down. Executing them is harder. It's dumb. I agree with you there.

+16% is nothing to scoff at, on top of this, I've already mentioned that they're more efficient other jobs. A puppetmaster cannot do this as efficiently as a samurai, and if they could they'd be doing 16% less damage just from the bonus alone, along with the fact you're probably doing less weaponskill. If you had a kenkoken you'd be sacrificing the 40% boost on Stringing Pummel to try and make lights.

A samurai can hit 7 back to back lights, and 5 is pretty easy to achieve. You really think puppetmaster or.. hell.. most jobs can achieve that? But Samurai is freaking broken. 65% is .. that's looking damn toasty right about now. It is under 50%. Sure, WS Dmg + White damage may be 65%, but get real if you think that is an accurate representation of the job or the scenarios it engages in.

You can't authoritatively throw out numbers like 65%, chastise others for estimates while also ignoring a big part of samurais damage. I asked people who are a lot more math savvy than I am.

<Balloon> So.. puppetmaster.. 2 puppetmaster vs 2 samurai. How much worse would you be doing? Under 65% of their total damage?
<Byrth> I'd assume so
<kjLotus> a lot
<kjLotus> pretty sure samurai is basically just a broken job
<kjLotus> it's kind of retarded


<Balloon> 2sam?
<kjLotus> depends if they fudo mindlessly or try to make skillchains
<Balloon> generally better now to hold and try to make sc?
<kjLotus> probably
<kjLotus> i never get to do any events anymore
<kjLotus> doing 5 step light is pretty ez with 2 sam


<Balloon> And just for reference, dumb question I know, but that's something PUP would have a really hard time doing correct?
<Byrth> yeah, Balloon

[Karbuncle]

I think peoples view of PUP is still a little fudged, unfortunately theres no real place to just "do" this stuff, Delve means someone will be slowed, someone might die, buffs might get dispelled... I wish there was just a "Training Dummy" somewhere, like in FFXIV, that acted like Fortifications (Recovering to full HP after reaching 50%) that you could endlessly beat to determine better builds... I ... I'll brb, I kinda want to make that statement in thread suggestion form.

But seriously, how awesome would that be? You could set its level (Maybe for the sake of easy programming, Lv1, Lv50, Lv99, Lv119, Lv129), and just beat the sh*t out of it unrestricted to determine a good baseline DPS and the strength of your current builds. Maybe just plop it down in the Mog Garden or something (since you can invite friends to your mog garden, it'd be a nice place to test it).

Seriously though BRB Threading this.

[Afania]

I will conceed that while it is true that under ideal circumstances 2 SAM do beat 1 SAM (Barely, TP overflow is basically the reason for this if I understand correctly), it is harder to set up. As I said, the skillchain system is not perfect. It's easier for one person to do that, but even with 2 you wildly underestimate how much skillcahins are doing. as the number goes up, the damage from skillchains goes down. Executing them is harder. It's dumb. I agree with you there.

So now you finally agree that OP SC dmg is the real culprit why SAM is OP?

IMO, half the reason why SAM is OP is because dev didn't foresee buffed fudo can do insane solo multi-step double light dmg, personally I think it's close to exploit and it's against the original design concept of buffed SC dmg. It certainly needs a nerf/fix.

+16% is nothing to scoff at, on top of this, I've already mentioned that they're more efficient other jobs. A puppetmaster cannot do this as efficiently as a samurai, and if they could they'd be doing 16% less damage just from the bonus alone, along with the fact you're probably doing less weaponskill. If you had a kenkoken you'd be sacrificing the 40% boost on Stringing Pummel to try and make lights.

It's not that I purposely ignored SC dmg to favor none SAM jobs in a DPS argument, it's more about DPS spreadsheet can't calculate SC dmg correctly as the situation varied too much.

Until we find a way to include SC dmg in a DPS discussion properly, the only info we can use is parse result, which you failed to present in the entire argument anyways.

White dmg/WS dmg wise, most jobs shouldn't do less than 50% of SAM.

It is under 50%. Sure, WS Dmg + White damage may be 65%, but get real if you think that is an accurate representation of the job or the scenarios it engages in.

This is obviously spreadsheet numbers, NO spreadsheet number can ever present an accurate representation of the job. For example, according to the last yorcia parse, 85% of SAM's dmg came from WS, only 15% came from white dmg. On the other hand, more than 50% of MNK's dmg came from white dmg. Basically, most h2h/1h job should have higher white dmg than SAM as well.

Therefore, if you're fighting a NM that spams amnesia like crazy, SAM's DPS would drop lower than other DDs, it's something spreadsheet wouldn't show.

You can say "but spreadsheet numbers it's sooo different from real scenario". If that's the case, present a parse result with your current gear set v.s another SAM wearing same lv of set. That's the only way ppl can present an opinion in a DPS discussion, parse or spreadsheet.

But you provide none of them anyways. You argue that spreadsheet number doesn't count because it's not accurate, on the same time you refuse to play PUP in events because you think it's a burden to your friends. How are you going to provide legit info to support your POV in a discussion?

You can't authoritatively throw out numbers like 65%, chastise others for estimates while also ignoring a big part of samurais damage. I asked people who are a lot more math savvy than I am.

I think you didn't ask properly. The way you asked sounds like 2 SAM doing 5 step SC v.s 2 PUP WS mindlessly.

Which obviously favors SAM, in fact even 2 SAM mindlessly doing fudo fudo light can probably generate bigger DPS gap than 2 PUP doing VS VS light as well, due to fudo usually has bigger number than VS(as far as I know, please correct me if that's wrong)

In the case of "Balloon wants to play with his friends on PUP", you can invite SAM as another DD instead of double PUP, have SAM close the SC with fudo. Stringing Pummel is irrelevant in your case unless you're a mythic PUP, so it's not that much of DPS lose if you don't use it.

In that case, having your PUP in a pt with another SAM shouldn't end up less than 50% of another equally geared SAM doing SC in the same way.

You're basically setting up a scenario that favors SAM and create a bigger gap, then come back to argue that X job do less than half of SAM because certain setup favors SAM. If you can do that, I can go on and create scenario that favor h2h dmg more as well.

According to spreadsheet, PUP is around 60%~65% of TP/WS dmg of SAM, nothing more and nothing less. If I'm gearing wrong on those jobs, feel free to point it out. But don't try to make the gap bigger by setting up a specific scenario like"2 PUP can't do more than half dmg of 2 SAM" just to prove your point is correct....what about 1 PUP and 1 SAM v.s 2 SAMs?

[zataz]

Because that's a whole heap of nonsense, the game has never really been like that at all. What did BST solo other than 1-75 and a few, select nms? The game has always been tiered like that, and all I want is for some of those tier lists to be changed. I don't actually think THF should surpass sam, but it's not even close, and the benefits of th don't fix that. Jobs should be closer to each other, not equal.

Jobs should be able to participate in all content, and it should be effective. It's not effective to do a Marjami run without a group of rangers, what I want it a situation where, because you've shouted for an hour already, someone goes "Well we might as well shout for x" not "Oh we might as well stop shouting."

Using the 75 model now is so baffling to me, it's not the same game, and some of the jobs should be reflected to change that. Because it's a waste of dev time to create solo content that won't give good rewards.

news flash idc what job u level or what gear u have. i would never invite u to my party just cause i make the party i can be picky =P

[Olor]

20 pages and absolutely no dev response. Impressive.

[Mitruya]

Since I don't read/speak Japanese, I am genuinely curious if: a) the Japanese players aren't as selfish as English-speakers, and therefore have an easier time grouping up with various set-ups and getting stuff done, and the job drawbacks don't bother them as much; or b) they choose efficiency with the flavor of the month set-ups also and it doesn't really bother them that other jobs get left out. Either way are they even making a ruckus at all about this? Perhaps I should add a c) their populations are high enough to make parties easily.
Also, I am saddened by those who poke fun at people who want to quit the game ... after awhile you just get tired of paying money to be lonely in an MMO, or whatever the reason may be.

[Karbuncle]

the JP go with about the same set ups we do. very little changes.