Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[Afania]

You and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes relevant content, then, because I don't considering being able to do 75-99 content as being "okay."

Delve 1, Delve 2, Skirm to a lesser Extent, High Level Battlefields - all relevant endgame

Walk of the Echoes, Dynamis, Salvage.. all level 99 stuff that anyone can do. It's not the same. If I went on anything I wouldn't be sacrificing that much, unlike the endgame content, where yeah if I took pup/dnc/thf over RNG/SAM I'd be sacrificing a hell of a lot. Maybe not in Delve 1, but Delve 1 is easier.

You can do dyna on SAM/DNC if you want, but most ppl would rather do it on THF. It's still the most efficient job for dyna, which is something almost every lsmate/friend spend time on.

As stated before, I don't view FFXI as "raids only" MMO, I don't like those type of MMO anyways, never really get into WoW/ARR. It doesn't matter if the content is 10 years old or 1 month old. As long as there's a reason to do it, it's "relevant content" to me. Having more jobs in FFXI makes ppl's live easier for variety of content, on the same time it's also harder to gear all, and vice versa. IMO that's what makes FFXI interesting.

This game is never about "raid only" with every job equal with 1 job geared. If this isn't your cup of tea you should have quit years ago. One of the above post saying he/she wants to quit cuz of job balance issue is something beyond my comprehension. If anything current job balance is much, MUCH better than abyssea era thanks to better content diversity. If someone isn't happy with the balance they should have quit years ago.

You can tell Dev specifically want ppl to lv multiple jobs by the way they design delve: Piercing is OP in ceizak but weak in yorcia. In kamir you need all types of dmg, but slashing doesn't seem to work well(not 100% sure on this). This is more than just SAM being OP DD, but they purposely make it so you need different jobs to do all zones also.

[Mitruya]

Just for clarification's sake, I do like playing multiple jobs. It just seemed like I picked all the wrong ones to focus on.
And I don't particularly enjoy COR because I feel forced to play it and I don't think I'm very good at it.
I've also experienced a lot of "buy a PC and dualbox," "go solo it with your pet job," and now "go solo it with Trusts," and that is just not always possible for every single content, nor is it very fun or encouraging in an MMO to have to spend so much time alone regardless of job choice.

[Balloon]

We run Ceizak with SAMs that spam Apex Arrow. It's hardly a point towards job diversity when you can run it with the same jobs.

Regardless of how you view FFXI when all they release is content that favours x jobs then it is focused on battle content, and it's silly to point to content that is years old to say that there isn't an inbalance in the job system. It's like you're saying THF can solo dynamis slightly better so that makes up for all the other situations where it's not really used. PUP can.. do what better? When you create content that requires jobs that do a certain thing then you can't be surprised when people want to actually use some of the other jobs to do it.

It does matter if content is 10 years old. It really, really does. Because MMOs stay alive because of the influx of new interesting content. If you're going to create a job system you need to ensure that those jobs are usable in a vast majority of it, and not just usable because of the fact that older content is much easier now.

So great, someone will accept me going on pup to vw because in the grand scheme of things vw is easy enough so that it doesn't matter. Maybe after 12 years people want to see that status quo shaken up a bit, and having some jobs break out of their confined, only good for solo roles would be part of that. I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content. It's in their own best interest. You could still do content on the jobs now, but it'd be more viable to do it on others. Less shouting. More doing. The job system champions diversity, the content does not.

Answer me this.. What would really be different about the current game if some of the jobs were removed? What's the point of them? Without DNC PUP BST RUN RDM NIN DRG, apart from subjob choices, the game would play nigh identical to what it does today.

Also "If you don't like the status quo you should quit." Is the worst argument for anything. First, it overlooks the fact that there's plenty in this game I actually do enjoy. Secondly, it just scoffs at the idea of change being possible. That opinion alone is the most infuriating thing about this debate.

[Olor]

I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content. It's in their own best interest. You could still do content on the jobs now, but it'd be more viable to do it on others. Less shouting. More doing. The job system champions diversity, the content does not.

Yeah, I really don't understand why the devs are being so stubborn about this. I don't want every job to be identical - but I DO want every job to be able to fill it's role adequately. I see they are trying to make GEO more in line with BRD - and as a BRD who hasn't even unlocked GEO I totally support that! Why can't they do more for DDs? Most of the jobs in the game are expected to fill DD roles. They really need to stop with this nonsense of pretending that the tiny bit of utility that light DD jobs and pet jobs have can outweigh their massive loss of DPS. Every DD regardless of "utility" should be within 90% of the strongest DD. I'd be fine if WAR, MNK, SAM, are "100s" and BST was a "90" - fine. That kind of gap can be filled... but if BST is a 60 or a 70, it's never going to be worth bringing a BST - EVER.

Pets just aren't that big of a utility - they are mostly a drag - even more so when they can't even hit anything tough when you're using acc food etc. They lose out on all buffs meaning that a BST's effective buff potency is much lower than other DDs... not reasonable.

[newmonkey]

Bst isn't supposed to come close to a Sam though Olor so i suggest you deal with it.

[Balloon]

Yeah, just accept the fact that beastmaster was supposed to be a job that was terrible. Don't complain about in-balances in the game. Just level SAM, like everyone else! /s[arcasm.]

[Mizuno]

Honestly though Balloon/Monkey, she shouldn't be forced to level it if she doesn't want to. The pet community has gotten completely shit on for a while, I sometimes don't see any dragoons on Ragnarok anymore. Why? Because it's not an optimal job for most relevant content.

However, at least Dragoon can compete in DD department to an extent. What does BST have? Nothing, their pets are unable to contend in DD, and any items that boost the pet, make the master wanting more for themselves. That's not how it should be, period.

BLU has plenty of power if played properly, I've out parsed DRK, MNK, WAR, and even a BLM. It is not that hard to do, it just takes timing and most importantly MP management.

However, BST doesn't have this, they got....some axes....Farsha....Guttler....the mythic I can't remember....and a few other options. But these don't add anything to the pet, and this that's always a problem.

The sheer favoritism of some jobs needs to stop, and discouraging members of the game from playing what they want to play is just ugh...I won't allow anyone to tell me how to play, especially if my runs end up with more success than an organized linkshell.

[Balloon]

/s. Look at the vast majority of my other posts on this thread. I was being incredibly sarcastic.

Plus, pup is my favourite job. Favourite, terrible job.

[Afania]

We run Ceizak with SAMs that spam Apex Arrow. It's hardly a point towards job diversity when you can run it with the same jobs.

Back in 2013/8 ppl rarely use SAM though, the most popular job at that time was RNG BLU THF DRG. Either way it's irrelevant to the argument.

Regardless of how you view FFXI when all they release is content that favours x jobs then it is focused on battle content, and it's silly to point to content that is years old to say that there isn't an inbalance in the job system. It's like you're saying THF can solo dynamis slightly better so that makes up for all the other situations where it's not really used. PUP can.. do what better? When you create content that requires jobs that do a certain thing then you can't be surprised when people want to actually use some of the other jobs to do it.

It does matter if content is 10 years old. It really, really does. Because MMOs stay alive because of the influx of new interesting content. If you're going to create a job system you need to ensure that those jobs are usable in a vast majority of it, and not just usable because of the fact that older content is much easier now.

I think after pages of pages of argument we still aren't on the same page - -

Can you please answer the below question first:

1. Why's lv 75 era content irrelevant when most players still spend majority of time in it?

2. Why's soloing dyna on SAM or MNK with slightly less gil farm efficiency than THF, is not the same as doing delve on THF with slightly less plasm farm efficiency than SAM or MNK?

You keep insisting on "old content is pointless because I can do old content on any job", so you'd rather solo dyna on MNK or SAM/DNC and make less gil/hr?

But when I said "you can do delve with THF BLU PUP with more than acceptable kill speed", my point was dismissed because apparently a pt with THF PUP BST is beyond terrible, really? You have 45 min in yorcia, I fail to see what's wrong with THF PUP BST when you have more than enough time to kill mobs?

When I argue that THF has better efficiency than SAM in dyna, my point was dismissed, when I argue that THF BLU PUP can clear delve just fine(including yorcia), just not at max efficiency, my point was dismissed again.

Seems double standard to me. You can dismiss my point about THF> DD in dyna because you can do dyna on any job, but when I said you can do delve with any job as well my point was dismissed again. Every argument I had was dismissed for completely opposite reason, lol.

If "THF is useless because I can do dyna on any job, just not at max efficiency" was a legit argument you can use, by same standard I can also say you can do delve on any job, just not at max efficiency.

I don't think you can compare FFXI with "other MMO". Most other MMO are raid only MMO, any content that's not the highest tier raid are irrelevant. On the other hand, vast majority of player don't spend most of their time doing raid in FFXI. What's the point to compare a MMO with every player rushing to endgame and skip everything for higher tier content with FFXI, which has players doing dyna/VW/salvage most of their time?

I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content.

Because I think upping the dmg of hybrid job so they can function as DD job is a lazy design direction. Hybrid job should have hybrid job's strength and weakness, they shouldn't be the same as DD job. If I want to play jobs that deals massive dmg, I'd lv SAM, instead of crying about my BLU isn't doing the same dmg as SAM.

I want my BLU to be more useful, yes. But I want it to shine in other content that's not delve. I'd rather want SE to create more content so other jobs can shine, instead of just upping the job's output to be equal to SAM and tell me "Ok, we're done with the job balance! Enjoy your BLU now!" It's a lazy and cheap way to balance jobs, nothing more and nothing less.

I can accept DRK WAR DRG get a dmg increase since they're DD jobs so they're supposed to match SAM's output, but BLU THF BST DNC PUP and such need something different, not SAM No.2. I love hybrid jobs in all MMO, and I don't want them to function as a pure dmg dealer. Asking the dev to adjust hybrid jobs by increasing their dmg to match the real DD means the dev won't focus on creating the unique strength of hybrid jobs anymore.

Your argument about jobs is only valid in games without job change button. It doesn't take long gear up a job. Further more, if everyone can just use 1 job, what's the point to lv up 2nd job or 3rd job? X job being more useful in certain situation is also a good incentive for ppl to try different jobs.

Answer me this.. What would really be different about the current game if some of the jobs were removed? What's the point of them? Without DNC PUP BST RUN RDM NIN DRG, apart from subjob choices, the game would play nigh identical to what it does today.

Not sure what's the real question here. Of course DNC and RDM are different. So does RUN NIN BST PUP.

Also "If you don't like the status quo you should quit." Is the worst argument for anything. First, it overlooks the fact that there's plenty in this game I actually do enjoy. Secondly, it just scoffs at the idea of change being possible. That opinion alone is the most infuriating thing about this debate.

This isn't the worst argument on a MMO game forum, it's a legit argument.

Every game has different target audience, every game has different design goals. It is not possible to satisfy every player on earth. In order for certain design goals to work, you do need to give up on certain target audience because it's not realistic to target toward everyone on earth.

If the game's design goal isn't what you're looking for, what else do you expect? You either deal with it or quit.

What's the point to change the game's design goal? There are no "better" design goals, only "different" design goals. FFXI with more than 10 jobs having equal output isn't "better" FFXI, just "different" FFXI. By changing the core design philosophy of the game, you may attract new target audience, but you may lose old ones. In a game that's over 10 year old, it's not logical to change the design philosophy drastically....look at what happened in 2013 after R/M/E change.

One of the reason why I enjoy FFXI is because this game isn't highest tier raid only, and jobs aren't pigenon hole into tank/healer/DPS. I liked the fact that ppl still need to spend time in content that's 5 or 10 years old because it's more fun than doing 3 same raid all the time. I also like the fact that jobs like THF BLU RUN is slightly better than SAM for soloing, doing dyna, soloing PW and such, I'm perfectly fine with SAM parse top in yorcia. If I want to parse top I can just lv SAM, which takes less than 3 weeks to collect gear anyways. I'd love to have THF BLU RUN able to do something unique and different from SAM in none delve content, if dev can do that I'd be happy.

But I don't want dev just increase the above job's DPS and tell me "Look, here's the job balance you want, we fixed it. Now you can get a pt invite in yorcia!" I don't want a dps increase so I can do yorcia on BLU and pretend I'm a mini SAM. I want dev to create a situation that BLU excel at, and it's not melee/TP/WS see who parse top.

wall of text summarize:

Dev specifically stated their design goal was to make every job has a use in different situation, that you must lv and gear multiple jobs to get everything done. Which is also the opposite design direction "1 job can do all content" from FFXIV.

I support FFXI's design direction, I want dev to enhance it and stick with it. I don't want every job to be SAM No.2, I don't want everyone to play 1 job and stick with 1 job only. If certain jobs are useless, dev should create more situation that favors it or give it some unique advantage, instead of directly increasing the dmg.

I don't want the design goal to change because that's why I like FFXI.

[Afania]

Honestly though Balloon/Monkey, she shouldn't be forced to level it if she doesn't want to. The pet community has gotten completely shit on for a while, I sometimes don't see any dragoons on Ragnarok anymore. Why? Because it's not an optimal job for most relevant content.

DRG isn't a pet job due to the job mechanic, it's a DD job. It does need output increase because it's DD job.

Other pet jobs need some advantage DD job does not have though, but stop asking SE to turn pet jobs into DD. As previously stated, it's a cheap and lazy way to adjust jobs and that killed the job diversity.

IMO the best way to adjust pet jobs is to increase the hateless output without being in AoE. If ppl can do AA VD with 6 pet jobs and get equal or better kill speed than PLD+2 RNG setup, IMO it's an unique advantage that DD job does not have, thus makes it different.

Making pet jobs do same melee/WS dmg as SAM is a bad idea though. Just go lv SAM if you enjoy doing dmg in a melee zerg situation, why play pet job if you like melee zerg in yorcia?