Ninja Ability Suggestion

[Kincard]

Arguing using known game mechanics is a "cop out"? I'm wondering what you'd have me use instead to convince you. I don't think you quite understand the point I was trying to make, I wasn't saying it's literally impossible for shuriken to be good, I'm saying that in the current framework of the game the type of things you'd have to do to make Shuriken good are so extreme that they'd never realistically happen. I even gave what kinds of D values you would need to see on these Shuriken, and that includes the suggestions that have already been made.

Stuff like triple shuriken throws, a throwing stance...they wouldn't do much. Just take a look at that Damage value you gave that was actually a realistic estimate of what a 119 shuriken would have: 200D. It's not hard to figure out how much Snapshot and Triple Shot you would need for it to equal katanas with no special effects like ODD being considered, which is something like 50% snapshot and 50% triple shot. Do you actually see something like that happening when RNG's velocity shot gives effectively 15% snapshot and 20% r.attack?

Do you see what I'm trying to say here? You're saying, it's possible and giving vague reasons why, I'm saying, it's only technically possible with those tools if you ask for them in amounts that's totally ludicrous and would never happen, or it would require a complete reworking of how ranged attacks work in the game.

Also ninjistu, does do good damage at 99.

No it doesn't, because SE neglected to give ilevel katanas magic attack for whatever reason. Unless you're talking about the 99 cap before ilevel, for which you're also wrong because it will still ridiculously outclassed by katanas even after that ninjutsu skill patch.

Also, ninja does have range gear, it is even on the reforged armor; which is puzzling atm.

It's also bad ranged gear. It's on there because it's carry-over from back when they were level 60 pieces of gear and throwing was still somewhat useful. The Hachiya Tekko +1 are the only competent piece of the bunch, the rest of it (which consists of Hachiya Hakama +1 and Mochizuki Chainmail +1) are ridiculously outclassed by the gear that actual ranged classes can wear.

they were even great pre delve at 99 with sange

Not really. Even without the inherent crumminess of shurikens, Sange sucks simply because it requires you to use the ability to get a buff before throwing instead of simply just being an action. It adds an extra 2-second JA usage delay which means half the extra shurikens you are throwing as a result just got completely negated because you spent all that time using the JA.

They could use rapid tp accumulation and ws usage as a way to counter the loss of dual wield and haste

If that worked, then RNGs wouldn't be largely shunned in parties other than for strategies specifically calling for RNGs.

[WoW]

Arguing using known game mechanics is a "cop out"? I'm wondering what you'd have me use instead to convince you. I don't think you quite understand the point I was trying to make, I wasn't saying it's literally impossible for shuriken to be good, I'm saying that in the current framework of the game the type of things you'd have to do to make Shuriken good are so extreme that they'd never realistically happen. I even gave what kinds of D values you would need to see on these Shuriken, and that includes the suggestions that have already been made.

Stuff like triple shuriken throws, a throwing stance...they wouldn't do much. Just take a look at that Damage value you gave that was actually a realistic estimate of what a 119 shuriken would have: 200D. It's not hard to figure out how much Snapshot and Triple Shot you would need for it to equal katanas with no special effects like ODD being considered, which is something like 50% snapshot and 50% triple shot. Do you actually see something like that happening when RNG's velocity shot gives effectively 15% snapshot and 20% r.attack?

Do you see what I'm trying to say here? You're saying, it's possible and giving vague reasons why, I'm saying, it's only technically possible with those tools if you ask for them in amounts that's totally ludicrous and would never happen, or it would require a complete reworking of how ranged attacks work in the game.



No it doesn't, because SE neglected to give ilevel katanas magic attack for whatever reason. Unless you're talking about the 99 cap before ilevel, for which you're also wrong because it will still ridiculously outclassed by katanas even after that ninjutsu skill patch.

Ok, I will speak for myself, I do good damage with ninjustu at 99. At first you were talking about ninjustu at lvl40, now you back-peddled to lvl99, but at least you acknowledged that ninjustu does good damage. Your previous post completely blew it off, post lvl40.

You are just arguing to defend your post; we get it, you do not like throwing, but we do. that is the point of the thread. The thread is about a ninja range stance. I gave specific reasons why it would work, but stated they were vague, you are clearly arguing just to defend your post. i mean, you have your suggestions, fine, we have ours, if you do not like it, then it is cool. However, we want a throwing stance. You want a melee fix.

You also mentioned rngs; if I recall correctly, rngs get a REM weapon (And a bada$$ ws), shurikens do have a relic. So what if ninja can throw money like you, but with a non-relic weapon. You keep throwing out pretty statistics, however, would rngs care if a non-relic weapon had rapid tp accumulation and a decent amount of delay reduction? Ninjas are the king of weapon delay reduction; so it makes sense imo. My shurikens were scaling with rng's attacks lvl 18-55 and they did not give two $hits.

One of your post stated and I quote; "Shurikens will always be useless unless they just completely revamp how ranged attacks work or actually decide to add something like a 1000D shuriken" You also stated, "Basically throwing would need a complete and total overhaul to be useful simply because of how the game works" that is what we are asking for.....LMAO...what is the problem brah lol. You have your suggestions; that is fine, public forum, however, this thread is about throwing so...................


you completely blew it off, so I do not expect you to have much objectivity pertaining to this topic. If anything; this stance would be akin to sams using a bow. That is what I envisioned. This would also help on those pesky mobs that take flight or range battles.

Edit: I will keep arguing with you though, more post may equate to a dev response. Ill just copy and paste my original post, because you seem to be completely against throwing; thus I would be wasting key strokes typing a completely new reply. I could use those strokes on hip hop vixens (No pun intended), my school work in the background or someone whom has something to add pertaining to throwing. I am so tired of this community constantly looking for a fight; good grief. This is a suggestion thread. you suggested a sange fix, ok, fine, moving on.....................gheesh. I mean, you stated that my comments were vague, but you want "some kind of ultra evading weapon," did I dissect your suggestion? no. We are not developers, we can only give our suggestion. Will some player come along and disagree with it? Sure. if one player disagrees with my stance, so be it; I am only trying to convince a dev to reply or other players whom share the same sentiments.

Also, you mentioned "convincing me" lol, idc man, i am only one guy; we obviously have conflicting opinions. the developer's have the final say in what gets implemented; it is not that serious man, lol. We are only making suggestions as you are. We should be more focused on convincing them.

[predatory]

A long time ago they changed utsusemi in a way that made it so whenever a mob missed due to a shadow, the person the mob missed would lose a little hate, (back when SE was nerf happy and pld's were bitching because the were replaced as tanks), they should simply get rid of that restriction. Another idea would be to create high damage shurikans, and katanas with high macc and matt. They could give nin higher eva and meva, utsusemi: san, and I think they should also give it pieces with racc and ratt, then it could be a viable tank again with a lot of tools to keep hate with.

[WoW]

A long time ago they changed utsusemi in a way that made it so whenever a mob missed due to a shadow, the person the mob missed would lose a little hate, (back when SE was nerf happy and pld's were bitching because the were replaced as tanks), they should simply get rid of that restriction. Another idea would be to create high damage shurikans, and katanas with high macc and matt. They could give nin higher eva and meva, utsusemi: san, and I think they should also give it pieces with racc and ratt, then it could be a viable tank again with a lot of tools to keep hate with.

I agree with all of this. Higher damage shurikens and more M.acc/att would really allow ninja to be the versatile job that they proclaim it to be. Atm, ninja can tank and dd; other jobs can do this as-well. Shuriken and magic attack ninja can/has worked, it has been done; just takes a little creativity on SE's part, should not be too much of a hassle.

[WoW]

As the op mentioned, a ninja with range attack+ws could be used as an alternative to throwing rngs at everything. Melee dmg boost would be awesome, but versatility would get you invites. Otherwise, just invite the mnk.

Mnk has always been the dps king, that is what they are known for; look at their JAs. A nin whom is proficient as a ranged dd will definitely get invites; especially if it could skillchain.

[predatory]

As the op mentioned, a ninja with range attack+ws could be used as an alternative to throwing rngs at everything. Melee dmg boost would be awesome, but versatility would get you invites. Otherwise, just invite the mnk.

Mnk has always been the dps king, that is what they are known for; look at their JAs. A nin whom is proficient as a ranged dd will definitely get invites; especially if it could skillchain.

Nin has never been a heavy hitter, and won't ever replace rng, but nin excels at being a versatile tank/dd/support (I added support because the nin wheel weaken mobs to blms elemental spells), and regardless of whether SE designed the job for that purpose, it is a thing of beauty when played that way.

[predatory]

As the op mentioned, a ninja with range attack+ws could be used as an alternative to throwing rngs at everything. Melee dmg boost would be awesome, but versatility would get you invites. Otherwise, just invite the mnk.

Mnk has always been the dps king, that is what they are known for; look at their JAs. A nin whom is proficient as a ranged dd will definitely get invites; especially if it could skillchain.

Mnk hasn't always been the dd king, back before I started playing (don't know if it was pre na pc release or after, I started at ps2 na launch), multi-hit ws gave tp for ever hit made during the ws, and sam's would use polearms for almost unlimitd ws. After they nerfed that rng became the hands down heaviest hitter in the game, and of course it was nerfed hard, and had longer delays put on ranged weapons than other weapons have, which put sam back on top. Mnk being top dog is a relatively recent thing when you take a long view of the game.

[WoW]

Mnk hasn't always been the dd king, back before I started playing (don't know if it was pre na pc release or after, I started at ps2 na launch), multi-hit ws gave tp for ever hit made during the ws, and sam's would use polearms for almost unlimitd ws. After they nerfed that rng became the hands down heaviest hitter in the game, and of course it was nerfed hard, and had longer delays put on ranged weapons than other weapons have, which put sam back on top. Mnk being top dog is a relatively recent thing when you take a long view of the game.

Certain jobs have their "flavor of the month moment" even pre-abyssea, mnk was a force to be reckoned with; not many jobs could edge out a properly geared mnk. Mnks ruled salvage; for obvious reasons.

[WoW]

Nin has never been a heavy hitter, and won't ever replace rng, but nin excels at being a versatile tank/dd/support (I added support because the nin wheel weaken mobs to blms elemental spells), and regardless of whether SE designed the job for that purpose, it is a thing of beauty when played that way.

i agree with this; ninja (For me personally) was a job that tears through mobs with sheer speed and nice ws. Tanking post jin was awesome. Shuriken tanking was a thing of beauty pre-60; nuking nin was insane in abyssea.

They need to bring this versatility back; notably shurikens.

[Demonjustin]

As the op mentioned, a ninja with range attack+ws could be used as an alternative to throwing rngs at everything.

I just wanna say. Lack of Decoy and Annihilator, if nothing else, would eliminate any chance of NIN being a real alternative. Kinard also pointed out that their throwing DMG is best at close range even if they're not meleeing due to how ranged attacks work, so they'd by default likely be weaker for that reason alone. I won't jump in the argument about whether or not the adjustment should be done or how valuable it would be, I just felt like pointing out that replacing RNG or becoming a decent alternative just isn't in the cards.