More Paladin-centered shields needed to close the gap with Aegis & Ochain

[Dantedmc]

Why should players who committed themselves--yes, like me--be effectively nerfed, because you don't want to build your shield?

Sorry, but you're not getting nerfed. Your Ochain will function exactly the same. The gap needs to be closed period. I don't think anyone is asking for an easier to obtain shield that is better or even on par with Ochain / Aegis, just a shield that allows pld to be played. It's sad seeing delve shouts take a Twilight Zombie over a non Ochain / Aegis pld, but its happening because frankly its more useful.

The fact that PLD can't even function without one of these shields shows that SE needs to look into the job and look for real solutions instead of making band-aids that many players won't be able to achieve.

[Yarly]

SE should just make PLD take zero damage from magic and physical. Therefore you don't even need a shield, just come on a naked PLD99 and you can just tank everything.

That will help all the people who don't have time to make an aegis and ochain!

[Duelle]

SE should just make PLD take zero damage from magic and physical. Therefore you don't even need a shield, just come on a naked PLD99 and you can just tank everything.

Despite your failed attempt at sarcasm, the implementation of shields has always been questionable at best. It's almost like they built the whole system around Aegis/Ochain being the best with little concern for anything below those two shields or the implications on player survivability. The until-recent wonkyness of shield blocking did not help at all, and was part of why NIN could wipe the floor with PLD in the tanking department for as long as it did (yes, I still remember the days of lolshield and how you needed an earth staff to tank things).

[OmnysValefor]

You mean besides Aegis/Ochain acting as on/off switches for paladin viability being fundamentally wrong and unfair to anyone that wants to pick up the damn job?

This also applies to other jobs where RME are on/off switches.

OP has it right, as the gap between a non-Aegis/Ochain PLD and an Aegis/Ochain PLD is huge. The main question is whether it should be resolved via new shields or whether a revamp of shield mechanics is in order and reitemization of shield stats to fit within the new model.

Yes, exactly. Aegis/Ochain is an on/off switch.

REM was an on/off switch for a lot of jobs.

It takes effort to build and it's a shame if people don't want to commit themselves. I have jobs I don't want to commit to, and I do half-bake, and ya know what? I take no offense when people don't want them.

If you haven't built either shield, you're not at all being serious about pld.

[OmnysValefor]

Sorry, but you're not getting nerfed. Your Ochain will function exactly the same. The gap needs to be closed period. I don't think anyone is asking for an easier to obtain shield that is better or even on par with Ochain / Aegis, just a shield that allows pld to be played. It's sad seeing delve shouts take a Twilight Zombie over a non Ochain / Aegis pld, but its happening because frankly its more useful.

The fact that PLD can't even function without one of these shields shows that SE needs to look into the job and look for real solutions instead of making band-aids that many players won't be able to achieve.

Haven't tried, because I don't need too, but if it was me, I'd try pld/rdm in a size 3 shield. Keep up aquaveil, proper bar element, and ice spikes. You could probably tank both the cricket and buttflies in Czeizak.

I make no assumptions about anyone, but most of these PLDs I see in steadfast shield are 5/5 Creed +2 (or +1...). They don't bring a DT kit. If they've bothered with dark rings, their 2% rings.

With most people, the people that won't commit to a relic/empy/mythic/upgrading-delve won't commit to other huge expenditures either, whether the cost be time or money. IE, war/drks that wouldn't build armadaberk, let alone adaberk.

There are two mindsets people bring to a job, and it can vary from job to job: I'm gonna put everything into this and do my best. / I'm gonna half-bake this and if it's not good enough, whatever. Noble's tunic whms, perle bsts, etc.

[FrankReynolds]

Yes, exactly. Aegis/Ochain is an on/off switch.

REM was an on/off switch for a lot of jobs.

It takes effort to build and it's a shame if people don't want to commit themselves. I have jobs I don't want to commit to, and I do half-bake, and ya know what? I take no offense when people don't want them.

If you haven't built either shield, you're not at all being serious about pld.

There shouldn't be an on/off switch period. If you think there should be then your not serious about anything.

[OmnysValefor]

There shouldn't be an on/off switch period. If you think there should be then your not serious about anything.

That makes no sense. You can disagree with my opinion, but your reply doesn't make any sense. We play the game SE made. SE has designed a game where if you're serious about goals, you gear the very best you can. If you don't play seriously, and to your best, you encounter an on/off switch.

I didn't ask for Aegis/Ochain to be required, but I--and many others--saw that it was, and so we made them. Gjallarhorn bards didn't ask to need to build Empy as well, but the extra song(s) makes their group better.

(Edit: As I was caught for not elaborating, I'm talking about bard in truly-hard content, like Delve's Mega Bosses. PLD hits the ceiling much much earlier than bard.)

In the funny case of both those jobs, many people made them even when the jobs were grossly underused for a lot of content in hopes that they'd be useful again.

[Demon6324236]

Yes, exactly. Aegis/Ochain is an on/off switch.

REM was an on/off switch for a lot of jobs.

No, it was never a on/off switch for other jobs except in Legion and maybe Prov Watcher, besides that it was simply the ignorant community forcing people to have certain things, like how people shout for Hahava and only want RME DDs when its a NM I could literally take down with only 3 well geared people, if that.

For PLD on the other hand, I have a PLD with capped MDT and quite a bit of MDB on it and yet some VW mobs, specifically the Demon adds, were able to 1-shot my PLD, other mobs can still bust out terribly high numbers which can lead to near instant death. A PLD with Aegis is taking 1/4th of the damage of a non-Aegis PLD who is capping MDT, before MDB gear, that 3/4ths extra damage is often enough to make a huge ass difference! Now if you get hit for a nuke for 100 its obviously nothing, my PLD takes about 50 yours takes about 12, both are very low, but what if its a nuke for, say, 2k, I get hit for 1k, you get hit for 240ish, now I am near dead and you are perfectly healthy. The difference there is a 75% difference, DDs at most have a 20~30% increase with their strongest weapon versus a decently easy to obtain weapon, except DRG, which is a special exception obviously.

Ochain is similar to Aegis, but not as much so. Ochain is like Apoc is to DRK in a way, it opens doors you did not have before, its not as important for your primary role, tanking everything, but against Physical damage its by far the best, what other shield has a block rate even close to it besides Aegis? What shield blocks this much damage? What shield, hell, what gear at all gives back this much MP to a tank that can heal itself? Ochain is by far the best shield on non-magic mobs, the gap on that is not messurable as easily as Aegis, but the gap is large enough that it makes such a difference that a non-Ochain PLD can tank 5~10 mobs while struggling, and an Ochain PLD can tank 15 mobs without looking at the screen practically.

The gaps between a RMED DD and a non-RMED DD is much smaller than that of a RE PLD and any other PLD.

[Demon6324236]

I didn't ask for Aegis/Ochain to be required, but I--and many others--saw that it was, and so we made them. Gjallarhorn bards didn't ask to need to build Empy as well, but the extra song(s) makes their group better.

Whoa... what? How does that comparison make sense? Last I checked I have never seen anyone request only R/E or R+E BRDs, I have seen people request that of a PLD and refuse those who did not have them, RE BRDs have never been basically forced into those items unless it was by a linkshell, and often a linkshell which does that ends up putting in time to assist with it anyways, which is different because they are forcing you but assisting you with it all the same. PLDs are expected to have R or E or they are simply ignored and thought not worth bringing because of the difference between a normal PLD, and a RE PLD. One is a basic requirement to play the job practically, the other is optional most the time, and when its forced on you its normally by the same people helping you to get it in the first place. Your comparison here is a failure.

[OmnysValefor]

Sorry, R/E in hard stuff, when you're winning by seconds.

Yeah, delve shouts will darn-near take a naked bard if they must, but hard content (not hard for a particular person, but truly hard, like Tojin right now) want relic/empy bards.

But yeah, fair enough, I didn't elaborate and bard doesn't hit the ceiling nearly as early as pld.