Being a Summoner can be disheartening these days :/

[Babekeke]

Yep, another J/T like Stout Servant, but enhancing base damage/attack/STR/MAB, that kind of thing.

Oh and reduce the cap on BP timer, naturally.

[Alhanelem]

First:

The bigger point that seems to keep getting forgotten is that the fix should not be coming from gear.

The fixes should be going directly to the pets first, regardless of what gear is equipped.

This- This is the first action they should be taking, rather than using gear as bandaids.

My proposal is mainly made with the understanding that they're not likely to do the above, even though it's the most sane, intelligent, logical thing to do.

So... why don't you stop arguing and just use grips (like SE probably wants it to do anyway) for exactly the same thing alhanelem suggests for the staves? Then you can keep your perp staff or melee staff if you want and still increase the dmg of the Avatar. You are way more flexible this way, too. It's not like we have any really good Grip anyway (smn skill+3? MP+? not really needed). I like the direction that SE wants to use grips since it's a slot we don't really needed until now. Implement lowlvl to highlvl grips so SMNs on lower levels can already benefit from it and it's done.

I don't think you understand the purpose of the proposal. First- they could easily make a grip with perpetuation - on it, thus making it all the more easy to choose a high level staff. Second- Tying avatar damage to weapon damage is not intended to help melee- it is intended to help the avatar. By setting up the system like this way, you ensure that the avatar is always stronger than the player (which is the way things should be.)- You can't increase your melee damage without also increasing avatar's damage, therefore you will always be more interested in using your avatar. This is primarily aimed at improving avatar's physical characteristics, where you may still need another staff for magic enhancement.

Having grips give super stats for the avatar just doesn't make sense. Grips have always been minor bonuses to supplement stats for 2-handed users. Avatars should be improved naturally before any gear is applied. Failing that, the best way to improve them would be to leverage gear we already have. Since basing mage capabilities on the damage of their weapons is common in many other MMOs, it is what made the most sense to me here (This could be applied to BLM too, where the DMG: on the weapon modifies nuke damage. This makes it a lot simpler to find and upgrade compared to the current system).

[Herby]

I don't think you understand the purpose of the proposal. First- they could easily make a grip with perpetuation - on it, thus making it all the more easy to choose a high level staff. Second- Tying avatar damage to weapon damage is not intended to help melee- it is intended to help the avatar. By setting up the system like this way, you ensure that the avatar is always stronger than the player (which is the way things should be.)- You can't increase your melee damage without also increasing avatar's damage, therefore you will always be more interested in using your avatar. This is primarily aimed at improving avatar's physical characteristics, where you may still need another staff for magic enhancement.

Having grips give super stats for the avatar just doesn't make sense. Grips have always been minor bonuses to supplement stats for 2-handed users. Avatars should be improved naturally before any gear is applied. Failing that, the best way to improve them would be to leverage gear we already have. Since basing mage capabilities on the damage of their weapons is common in many other MMOs, it is what made the most sense to me here (This could be applied to BLM too, where the DMG: on the weapon modifies nuke damage. This makes it a lot simpler to find and upgrade compared to the current system).

Oh I understand perfectly what YOU think this does to us, but MY opinion is, that it does more harm than it does good, to tie it to the Weapon. It would cripple our choices in staves. We have different staves for different styles of play and I don't want to give that up becaue i have to wear a certain Staff to make my Avatar useful overall. And unlike you state grips makes PERFECT sense BECAUSE they only gave really minor enhancements to any stat. Because they're replaceable it's the perfect slot. Unlike staves because they already give major enhancements to our avatars like perp cost-7 or Avatar MAB +40 and upwards (well i'd love to have a better stave for physical Blood pacts still, Magian or Soul Scourge aren't exactly giving a huge boost)!

But I totally agree that first and foremost Avatars should be boosted naturally and then by gear, but staves would be IN MY opinion then wrong way, as much as I like that you at least do make proposals as how to change the gear enhancements for SMN.

[Mirage]

Just like DDs are crippled in that they have to use a small selection of RMED all the time.

[Alhanelem]

Oh I understand perfectly what YOU think this does to us, but MY opinion is, that it does more harm than it does good, to tie it to the Weapon.

I disagree. It does way more good than harm. It doesn't harm anybody other than those who refuse to upgrade their weapon for the sake of clinging to the past (a past where summoner has always been mediocre at best).

It would cripple our choices in staves.

It wouldn't cripple our choice in staves, because outside of choosing whether you want to melee or not, there isn't much of a choice. either elemental staves/prism staff, one of the few MAB staves, or a perp staff. MAB staves would still be completely relevant, and staves with a higher DMG rating would become meaningful for their benefits to your summons. the total number of useable staves would be higher than it is now, not smaller.

Unlike staves because they already give major enhancements to our avatars like perp cost-7

Not going to go in to detail, but -7 perp is not a major benefit. It's very minor, as while helpful, it is not absolutely necessary to perform your role as summoner.

or Avatar MAB +40 and upwards

MAB staves would still be relevant because DMG: only affects physical attacks.

But I totally agree that first and foremost Avatars should be boosted naturally and then by gear, but staves would be IN MY opinion then wrong way,

It's a far better way than putting pet stats on grips. Grips is where the big perp cost - should be. Even that would give more weapon choice.

Again though, all of this is in lieu of addressing the inherent flaws in the avatars. Gear should be needed to push the envolope, not upgrade our pets from shiatty to not-as-shiatty.

[Herby]

I disagree. It does way more good than harm. It doesn't harm anybody other than those who refuse to upgrade their weapon for the sake of clinging to the past (a past where summoner has always been mediocre at best).

What the...? I love that we can use staves from various levels, because we don't get pidgeonholed into the "Use this single uberweapon or gtfo!" I don't want this to happen, and to be honest even with powerful grips we're running into this mess. It's still better to use grips for it though, since they're replaceable atm. But it's not doing us any favors whatsoever if our mainsource of avatar power comes from gear. I understand that there should be gear progression since we won't get another lvlcap raise but still, i hate all these RMED only shouts and I'd hate it for SMN, PUPs and other jobs alike if there starts to be shouts like "alternator only" (as unlikely as it is since those jobs aren't exactly popular)

It wouldn't cripple our choice in staves, because outside of choosing whether you want to melee or not, there isn't much of a choice. either elemental staves/prism staff, one of the few MAB staves, or a perp staff. MAB staves would still be completely relevant, and staves with a higher DMG rating would become meaningful for their benefits to your summons. the total number of useable staves would be higher than it is now, not smaller.

It WOULD cripple our choices in staves, because I for one like my Perp cost gear. I like that i can use a 5%Haste +3critrate hat for my Avatars and Relic+2body for even more critrate. when i'm gearing towards Avatar Melee i have 9% more crits on avatars and 12%Haste on them. I couldn't do that if i have to wear a Highdmg staff without perp cost, because my Avatars would cost too much to let them melee for longer periods. Oh and having the dmg bonus on Grips wouldn't do that. Why create perp cost grips when there are already staves for this, and staves you have to put time into, to get them? THAT doesn't make sense. and when I want to melee Alongside my Avatar i simply switch in another staff with high dmg and instead more perp gear in other slots. Because I HAVE those choices. Those would be taken away if your proposal would be done by SE. I don't want to be pidgeonholed into only 1 or 2 staves for everything (ok i hate that i have 8 staves for 8 elements, that could be 1 alone and wouldn't be overpowered but i'd still use like 4-5 staves for different situations then)

Not going to go in to detail, but -7 perp is not a major benefit. It's very minor, as while helpful, it is not absolutely necessary to perform your role as summoner.

That's so wrong IN MY EYES, -7 perp cost is a HUGE benefit because it frees so many other slots to put in something way more useful for many situations.
Example given above

MAB staves would still be relevant because DMG: only affects physical attacks.

I agree on this one

It's a far better way than putting pet stats on grips. Grips is where the big perp cost - should be. Even that would give more weapon choice.

I still don't think you understand the thinking of the community as a whole. That's why I say it would cripple our choices in staves, because just like melees are pidgeonholed into "RMED" at the moment we would be pidgeonholed into "new superuberweapon which makes avatar melee useful- only" I for one don't want that to happen. Too powerful grips would do something alike, I know, and I'm not wanting that either but it would at least let us choose which staves we want to use for OUR OWN playstyle. Not everybody does play SMN like you do

Again though, all of this is in lieu of addressing the inherent flaws in the avatars. Gear should be needed to push the envolope, not upgrade our pets from shiatty to not-as-shiatty.

Agreed on this one. And that being said don't understand me wrong I don't want to make your arguments any less important since such a discussion is NEEDED for SMN. I'm just being on another side of opinions than you.

[Alhanelem]

What the...? I love that we can use staves from various levels, because we don't get pidgeonholed into the "Use this single uberweapon or gtfo!"

You aren't pigeonholed into use this single weapon whatever. There are a lot of staves out there with good dmg ratings these days, and delve didn't pump that up much so there are still a variety of options that are quite close to each other in power. Currently (short of some creativity) we are pigeonholed into using either a rainbow ele staff or -perp staff for the majority of the time. How is this any better? In fact, for the longest time, all mages were pigeonholed into the elemental staves. Thus, even just throwing the R/M/E weapons in there means more options, but there's more than that- A skirmish staff ursurps my lv90 empy...

TL;DR: There are more options under my proposed system than there are currently (collectively treating ele staves as one thing, collectively treating magian perp staves as one thing- they all do the same thing, they're not really different- I don't consider them "options.")

You seem to think that literally my mindset here is "Everyone must use the relic weapon!" That's not it at all, and that's not what would happen here.

Not everybody does play SMN like you do

I'm NOT asking people to play SMN like I do! NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. I'm asking everyone to play the way they normally do, and have more weapons be possible to do it with. This is NOT ABOUT meleeing with summoner. This is about improving the AVATARS. Please, get your mind past this fact so you can understand my position better. This is about more weapon possibilities and better avatar DPS. You're missing the point that the whole idea is to ensure that the avatar is always more powerful than you are, thus making it so you DON'T have to melee to get your damage to a half decent level.

[Herby]

You aren't pigeonholed into use this single weapon whatever. There are a lot of staves out there with good dmg ratings these days, and delve didn't pump that up much so there are still a variety of options that are quite close to each other in power. Currently (short of some creativity) we are pigeonholed into using either a rainbow ele staff or -perp staff for the majority of the time. How is this any better? In fact, for the longest time, all mages were pigeonholed into the elemental staves. Thus, even just throwing the R/M/E weapons in there means more options, but there's more than that- A skirmish staff ursurps my lv90 empy...

TL;DR: There are more options under my proposed system than there are currently (collectively treating ele staves as one thing, collectively treating magian perp staves as one thing- they all do the same thing, they're not really different- I don't consider them "options.")

You seem to think that literally my mindset here is "Everyone must use the relic weapon!" That's not it at all, and that's not what would happen here.

I'm NOT asking people to play SMN like I do! NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. I'm asking everyone to play the way they normally do, and have more weapons be possible to do it with. This is NOT ABOUT meleeing with summoner. This is about improving the AVATARS. Please, get your mind past this fact so you can understand my position better. This is about more weapon possibilities and better avatar DPS. You're missing the point that the whole idea is to ensure that the avatar is always more powerful than you are, thus making it so you DON'T have to melee to get your damage to a half decent level.

1) It's wrong that Delve didn't do much about staffdmg: Yaskomo's Pole rates @ 150dmg that's around 50 above MYTHIC at the moment, that's a whole lot, if you'd translate that to the avatars. So tell me why they wouldn't say "delve or gtfo" if you have way less dmg on other staves for Avatars

2) you don't seem to read what i write. I was only talking about meleeing alongside Avatars as an option. My mainpoint was that perp staves give me the Freedom to enhance my avatar even further with other Gear (as stated before Haste +12% and critrate +9% FOR MY AVATAR). Just put dmg increases on grips and i can keep those options. (yeah perp grips would do the same, but why create perp grips when you already have perp options available and instead do something on grips which really helps) and do the dmg increase instead on grips)

I don't understand why you insist on doing this on Staves when Grips fit the bill perfectly

I guess we may have to agree to disagree on this matter

[Babekeke]

1) It's wrong that Delve didn't do much about staffdmg: Yaskomo's Pole rates @ 150dmg that's around 50 above MYTHIC at the moment, that's a whole lot, if you'd translate that to the avatars.

Maybe you missed that SE have said they'll be upgrading the r/m/e to be more comparable to the delve weapons?

So tell me why they wouldn't say "delve or gtfo" if you have way less dmg on other staves for Avatars

Kind of irrelevant, since the Grip will almost certainly drop from delve as well. If you have access to the grip, you have access to the staff. It'll still be "delve or gtfo" whether it refers to the grip or the staff. The difference being that you'll most likely want the staff anyway, just for the +MAB.

[Herby]

Maybe you missed that SE have said they'll be upgrading the r/m/e to be more comparable to the delve weapons?



Kind of irrelevant, since the Grip will almost certainly drop from delve as well. If you have access to the grip, you have access to the staff. It'll still be "delve or gtfo" whether it refers to the grip or the staff. The difference being that you'll most likely want the staff anyway, just for the +MAB.

If you read my earlier posts you would see that I already said that Grips aren't the best solution either, i just think they're the better choice, since it wouldn't make older weapons outside of R/M/E obsolete, and I know about the revamp to R/M/E99, but R/M/E99 are still extremely diffcult to obtain for a large number of people. So it's stilll "have x/y/z or gtfo" and that bothers me