Being a Summoner can be disheartening these days :/

[Mirage]

My terrible gear: Chatoyant, Caller head +2. caller body +1, caller hands +1. evoker's ring, stearc subligar with refresh augment, caller's feet +2. Net loss of 0 mp per tick on non-matching day/weather.

Matching day: Net gain of 3 mp/tick, then I can still use the Refresh spell to gain even more.
It's pretty easy to do.

[Calatilla]

Now try that without the chatoyant, which is effectively a -perp staff for every avatar. The question was, what would you use in place of a -perp staff where you're not losing MP, and that includes chatoyant.

The whole point to my question was because it was said that -perp staves are not needed. So give me an example of a gearset where you're not losing mp with an avatar out that doesn't include a staff, any staff.

[Mokeil]

So give me an example of a gearset where you're not losing mp with an avatar out that doesn't include a staff, any staff.

Actually, I already did that:

The Caller's +2 Doublet and Pigaches account for -7 perp. The Evoker's Ring adds another -1. The Summoner's Horn +2 would give another -3... Oh! And the Adhara Gages grant -2. All in all, that's -13 perpetuation. That still leaves me with a perp cost of -2. Factor in Summoner's native auto refresh and I would balance out to exactly 0 cost.

No staff involved. No Avatar's Favor. No day/weather shenanigans.

Toss in an augmented Stearc Subligar and you'll be at +1/tick cost. There's also a possible Moonshade Earring augment to get you to +2/tick, but not everyone might want to put their Moonshade to mage-iness.

[Alhanelem]

First-

And in the same situation I pull in +5/tick.

So what? I don't run out of MP without "pulling in" +5/tick. I don't need that in order to not run out of MP.

Using Favor does nothing but penalize me, as it cuts my avatars' offensive powers, and does nothing to give me more MP back.

Using favor has virtually no penalty whatsoever, reduces perp cost, and gives you a potentially useful (but slight, because you'll be using BPs) buff. While you don't need it's perp- if you've already negated it elsewhere, why use a crappy staff with perp- on it when you can use a better staff without perp- on it and negate the perp cost elsewhere?

For me, having a maximized -perp/refresh set is like the difference between a melee having, oh... an 85 Empy, and a 99 one.

For me, having a real staff instead of a perp staff is like the difference between a melee DD having an 85 empy and a 99 one- because the real staff improves my performance, while the perp- staff doesn't. Your comparison is extremely flawed and inaccruate because you don't need a maximize perp/refresh set for optimal performance. your BPs are on a hard timer. It is not difficult to maintain your MP while using them as often as they come up. To me this is like continuing to add gear haste past the gear haste cap. If you don't actually need something, adding more of it doesn't help you.

The whole point to my question was because it was said that -perp staves are not needed. So give me an example of a gearset where you're not losing mp with an avatar out that doesn't include a staff, any staff.

You don't even need to completely negate perpetuation cost for it to be irrelevant. Unless you're unable to perform your essential job functions as a result of the perpetuation cost, you don't need any more. If you have enough other forums of MP recovery, be they buffs, siphon, myrkr, spirit taker, any of several refresh effects, convert, or sublimation, and you're able to BP when you want without having to rest for MP, then you don't need more perp -.

with this gear set http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/301790, which represents the stuff I most commonly have equipped (I do of course have some macro sets), there is -8 perp, +2 refresh, and +2 auto refresh; +1 more in a matching weather condition, and halving any remainder (rounded down). if no day or weather is available, the remaining perp can be cut by using Favor- which has a very minor negative impact on the avatar. Unless I'm in some hardcore endgame event like delve NMs, I generally am able to use Myrkr whenever I need it to get a total or near total MP refill. Then there's Siphon. SMN has access to lots of MP recovery.

Of course, all this ignores the fact that you can in fact completely negate avatar perp without a staff, and also the fact that if you have the highest damage staves, you're in a good position to use MP recovery WS and your avatar is also doing more damage (with the suggestion I offered in this thread).

[Babekeke]

So what gear are you using where you don't need a -perp staff to keep an avatar out without it costing you mp? And at present there aren't any better staves to use when not using a BP other than a -perp staff.

His argument is that if the avatar dmg was based on the dmg of the SMN's main weapon, then using a high damage weapon would be more beneficial.

[Alhanelem]

His argument is that if the avatar dmg was based on the dmg of the SMN's main weapon, then using a high damage weapon would be more beneficial.

that's the gist of it basically. If/when you're able to melee, a high dmg staff is already more beneficial, but if it also added dmg to the avatar like I described in an earlier post (which is similar to what they say they are doing for polearms on DRG) you won't have to melee to gain a benefit from the many weapon-type staves (as opposed to stat-sticks that have never offered as much to SMN as other jobs).

In many other games, including FFXIV 1.x, the damage rating of your weapon was a key stat even on caster classes. Weapons for mages are balanced around this, where the weapon's damage value influences the effectiveness of their primary means of attack (e.g. spells).

[Mokeil]

While you don't need it's perp- if you've already negated it elsewhere, why use a crappy staff with perp- on it when you can use a better staff without perp- on it and negate the perp cost elsewhere?

What better staff? I've said at least twice now that I'd love to know what staff you think I should be using, and you have yet to provide me with an example.

By your listed gear set and comments, am I safe in assuming you would wish to put forth the Hvergelmir as such an example? I would not deny that you would have an excellent point, but then I also already stated that I myself use a different staff when it's safe to melee. If that statement then wasn't enough, allow me to make this as clear as possible now:

I have not now or ever stated, nor do I believe that a -perp staff is the best staff for all situations and that it should be used at all times. I also agree that in times when it is safe to melee you will net far more returns from a higher damage staff via Myrkr/Spirit Taker than you would get from the -perp staves with the added benefit contributing to your overall damage.

But what about when it's not safe to get up next to the mob and melee? If I can't swing for TP to WS with, the Hvergelmir (or any melee centric staff) offers me no benefit as I am neither getting MP back from it, nor generating extra damage from it. What other staff should I be using in such a situation that makes a -perp staff "crappy"?

If you're trying to tell me that a -perp staff allowing me to get more MP still does nothing beneficial for me when I can't get up and melee, I'll have to disagree. People have radically different ideas of what their "essential job functions" are (which are often further modified by who they're with, and what event they're doing at the time). Given my particulars, I need that +5/tick to do my thing more often than not. For me, since I'm not giving up anything when I can't melee, and am in turn getting something I need, a -perp staff is an invaluable piece in my overall -perp/refresh set.

Now, as I believe this talk of -perp staves has gone on more than long enough, that neither you or I are likely to shift our stances, and that it is beginning to detract from the purpose of the thread(as well as discussion about the idea you proposed), I will allow the following to be the last I intend to say here on the subject: As the saying going, "stuff's situational." Just because you don't have a use for something doesn't mean that someone else in entirely different circumstances doesn't, and I object to your unilateral dismissal of -perp staves as useless.

[Alhanelem]

What better staff? I've said at least twice now that I'd love to know what staff you think I should be using, and you have yet to provide me with an example.

Virtually any other staff that doesn't have perp but has other useable stats e.g. pet MAB, better DMG rating, MP, summon skill, anything. Do I really need to list all the staves that have these stats?

I'm not really sure why you can't see that perp- does zero to improve your performance. Perp - only compensates for an intentionally imposed limitation; once it's been adjusted to the point where it doesn't impact your activities, it is indeed "useless." Perp- doesn't help you do more damage, it doesn't make your buffs better, it does nothing but save you MP- if you're not having MP troubles, then you have all the perp- you need.

I have not now or ever stated, nor do I believe that a -perp staff is the best staff for all situations and that it should be used at all times.

I never claimed you've said that. All I'm telling you is that you don't need as much perp- as you think you do and you can easily obtain the necessary perp with gear you're very likely to already be using before equipping a staff.

[Deifact]

Virtually any other staff that doesn't have perp but has other useable stats e.g. pet MAB, better DMG rating, MP, summon skill, anything. Do I really need to list all the staves that have these stats?

I'm not really sure why you can't see that perp- does zero to improve your performance. Perp - only compensates for an intentionally imposed limitation; once it's been adjusted to the point where it doesn't impact your activities, it is indeed "useless." Perp- doesn't help you do more damage, it doesn't make your buffs better, it does nothing but save you MP- if you're not having MP troubles, then you have all the perp- you need.

I never claimed you've said that. All I'm telling you is that you don't need as much perp- as you think you do and you can easily obtain the necessary perp with gear you're very likely to already be using before equipping a staff.

I feel as though the SMN community feels they have to reduce perp cost as much as possible, and then stack other stats ontop. Really it should work the other way around. You should be stacking other stats, and if you find you are running out of MP slowly implement more -perp cost until you find a point where you can manage MP like you say.

[Calatilla]

Virtually any other staff that doesn't have perp but has other useful stats e.g. pet MAB, better DMG rating, MP, summon skill, anything. Do I really need to list all the staves that have these stats?

I have all those, and they're macro pieces, pet mab does nothing unless using a magical BP, smn skill doesn't do anything for your avatar unless its performing a bp.

I completely understand what you are saying, if you're in a position where you can melee, then a higher dmg staff with melee oriented stats will benefit you more than using a -perp staff, but then, if you're meleeing, you're going to be using melee oriented gear also, which will negate your -perp even further.