Trials of the Magians and casual players.

[Zagen]

Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons

Now some can be skipped/ignored/done in different order whatever you want to call it but I mean if you as a player see there is an order of progression as existing and you're at step 1 why should you expect to compete with players at step 6-9 before getting closer to that point?

I understand at one point SE said TotM would always remain relevant but they also said BST would get the pet with the most votes when asked about new pets or how SMN were supposed to get new Avatars over a year ago. SE never goes back on their word nope not ever.

As to new players not staying that's simple, the MMORPG model "pay 2 play" is dead. WoW is feeling it and Blizzard has already admitted they expect to keep losing players. I sure hope 14 is prepared to switch models but that's a whole other topic all together.

[Sarick]

Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons

Now some can be skipped/ignored/done in different order whatever you want to call it but I mean if you as a player see there is an order of progression as existing and you're at step 1 why should you expect to compete with players at step 6-9 before getting closer to that point?

What people want is alternative gear that is a casual path. It doesn't need to be the best. This gear is in the form of older content growth not the new shoved in your face content. Plain and simple. As I stated before the best games the have multiple paths toward development. These excel because players aren't restricted to one path.The ones that are inflexible (forced as to hard or to easy) fail the hardest. This game is after all a glorified chat room where people come to enjoy a game not work a second job.


Before this expansion a player could choose any RME or trial and build them up. All these gears scaled nearly identical and remained powerful. Even the trial gear was comparable to the uber gear for casual player. Now you see in this new content the only RME are relevant to the new content in the FINAL stage.

Mog trial type casual weapons are extremely inferior and not even worth creating. Wrose the FINAL stage RME are ludicrous to create outside cheating, exploitation or absurd dedication.

In your quote gil farming to get stage 7 gear just proves how broken everything 1-6 is. This is the Jump that makes all content below 7 a joke. No onein their right mind would want to work for that content when they can power gear themselves like cleave parties with stage 7 gear.

[Hawklaser]

Okay so it looks like we are in agreement to a degree when it comes to the progress, now here's how I see it:

1) Abyssea Cruor Gear, TotM Elemental/WS paths, and 75 content gear (sky/sea/af/relic/etc.)
2) Emp armor/weapons
3) VW armor and weapons (I guess imo weapons are too situational)
4) Neo Salvage/Limbus
5) Bayld Peacekeeper gear
6) Neo Nyzul
7) SoA Craftables
8) Wildskeeper armor/weapons
9) Delve Plasm armor/weapons
10) Delve Boss armor/weapons

Now some can be skipped/ignored/done in different order whatever you want to call it but I mean if you as a player see there is an order of progression as existing and you're at step 1 why should you expect to compete with players at step 6-9 before getting closer to that point?

Just want to chime in on this as a returning player, as been having fun with this gear struggle. Getting from 0 to 1 is very easy seeing as the cruor equip is dirt cheep on the AH and not that hard to fill in the gaps with cost effective gear. Gear from 2-4, and 6, good luck getting people to help on that stuff anymore. Been stuck trying to get some of the gear in those areas for a while. I have not really dabbled with 5 yet, as beating on a rock or root does not seem all that fun especially when some gear from the other areas seem to be more useful than most of the gear obtained via bayld, and have limited time as well.

Now 7 would be a nice alternative, if they were more affordable, but alas not everyone has a million plus gil to throw at a single gear slot.

As for 8,9, and 10, good luck on doing those on anything but a support job unless you are already decently geared.

Now, I get that different content favors different jobs, but one should not be forced to level a job they have no desire to play just to get gear for the one they do want to play. This means either via playing a support job to participate in end game stuff, or leveling one of few jobs that can solo that earlier content. Zagen, you mentioned earlier that you know what its like not being able to do content you want on a job you like. Consider being forced to do that from level 1-99, because of how hard it is to get assistance on old content now. People are already advised to level WHM first for a few reasons, one is easy Maat fight, and 2nd is can use it to gear what ever else one wants to play.

I don't consider myself a casual or hardcore player, partly because I do try and put in the effort to excel at the jobs I really enjoy, but never had the time to do the big endgame events. So here I am stuck not being able to really progress, because it would be easier to take a little kid to the dentist then it is to get help on non-SoA content currently. With being a returning player, I know how much reputation can mean in this game, so really don't want to be showing up to these more end game like events with the more newbish gear even if could do so.

Now as to the arguments about seeing people shouting for groups to do seal/+2 farming, or join in a delve group that is shouting. For the first one, they likely have to resort to shouting because their linkshell(if they have one) is not helping them out with it, plus shouts I kinda see as a last resort as it has one sitting in town likely doing nothing for who knows how long. And as to the delve stuff, right now you might be able to sneak in a cruor geared non-support, but that is getting harder to do.

[Zagen]

Just want to chime in on this as a returning player, as been having fun with this gear struggle. Getting from 0 to 1 is very easy seeing as the cruor equip is dirt cheep on the AH and not that hard to fill in the gaps with cost effective gear. Gear from 2-4, and 6, good luck getting people to help on that stuff anymore. Been stuck trying to get some of the gear in those areas for a while. I have not really dabbled with 5 yet, as beating on a rock or root does not seem all that fun especially when some gear from the other areas seem to be more useful than most of the gear obtained via bayld, and have limited time as well.

2 I only see as a problem if you refuse to lead and run a group with what job you like (i.e. if you love BST then get the key atma you need to have a tanking pet) and build around that. People left in the game that aren't caught up are more than happy to be your sheep if you will lead them. That's the thing though you have to be willing to lead, this was true in the past for anything and is even more true now as those players with natural leading skills have built up friends they do things with or have moved on, in either case you can take over or wait to be someone else's sheep.


3 honestly can be skipped on almost every job, even before SoA VW gear had already become obsolete with the exception of a few items (obviously this depends job to job but overall many pieces where out grown).

4 for salvage the only hard part is having a group that can clear the bosses, by that I mean a competent healer and decent DDs. Plans can be farmed by a lot of different jobs and in many cases don't require TH (helps but not required). Neo Limbus is just like the boss fights just scaled up pretty much, a little more annoying but overall the same (this was sad when it was found out, as it was lazy design imo).

5 is by far the easiest to do if you're smart about it. What that means is that while a SMN could walk away from a reive with 3-4k Bayld (my lol SMN has done this clearing paths for Delve) it makes more sense to do the Coalition quests. For example Mummer's Coalition starter mission is collect a Lost Article KI from Ceizak Battlegrounds or Yahse Hunting Grounds. All you do is find the Lost Article NPC target (not on wide scan that i recall), touch it, and you have the KI. Then turn it in for 1,500/2,700/3,800 Bayld depending on how many tags you chose when you picked the mission. Also many quests reward you with Bayld for example the 2 quests involving every waypoint in each of the Adoulin zones.

Because of the options available that require 0 fighting I feel that going from 2 to 5 is more than reasonable, also the fact that much of the gear from 3 and 4 on my list isn't a major upgrade.

6 it just takes someone willing to lead 80 clear runs, do some research and you'll be able to go either with a static or shout groups. They still fill up on my server and the best part is with all the changes getting 80 clears is realistic for sub optimal setups.

Now 7 would be a nice alternative, if they were more affordable, but alas not everyone has a million plus gil to throw at a single gear slot.

I agree the prices are high but this is in part because they're new and high level synths, and the other part is there just isn't a large supply of the craft items needed. Eventually this will drop in price as it has been already.

As for 8,9, and 10, good luck on doing those on anything but a support job unless you are already decently geared.

8 actually you can do naked as long as you have the KI to access the zone. It's like Walk of Echos in that you can't be excluded as long as you have access. Obviously you have to be able to do your part in order to get enough points for a shot at the gear but that's logical and I doubt anyone has an issue with that mechanic.

9 and 10, considering this is what SE has stated will be the endgame content for a while isn't it logical that until you've gotten up to 6-7 you should be excluded?

Now, I get that different content favors different jobs, but one should not be forced to level a job they have no desire to play just to get gear for the one they do want to play. This means either via playing a support job to participate in end game stuff, or leveling one of few jobs that can solo that earlier content. Zagen, you mentioned earlier that you know what its like not being able to do content you want on a job you like. Consider being forced to do that from level 1-99, because of how hard it is to get assistance on old content now. People are already advised to level WHM first for a few reasons, one is easy Maat fight, and 2nd is can use it to gear what ever else one wants to play.

If you aren't trying to skip several steps in the game's progression you wouldn't need to level another job to participate. However depending on what job you do enjoy that may mean waiting for people who're open minded, understand your job choice still works in X event, or leading your own group. If any of those aren't options you care for you'll find yourself in the same position I was in as a 95 Apoc DRK when NNI was the new thing to do. While I got 2 100 clears on DRK I got tired of waiting for a DD slot and chose to gear my SCH to give me that as an option. At that time I didn't feel like leading groups but I found that most people who were trying to lead hadn't bothered to research things and I ended up training them, instead of training them I decided to lead a static and we got 5 more pieces from KIs and I believe 4 more drops not counting the NQ/+1/+2/+3 items. The only thing hardcore or elite of the group I formed was 5 other players willing to research and make adjustments as we learned to play together.

I don't consider myself a casual or hardcore player, partly because I do try and put in the effort to excel at the jobs I really enjoy, but never had the time to do the big endgame events. So here I am stuck not being able to really progress, because it would be easier to take a little kid to the dentist then it is to get help on non-SoA content currently. With being a returning player, I know how much reputation can mean in this game, so really don't want to be showing up to these more end game like events with the more newbish gear even if could do so.

First the honest (or as some say ass) response to this issue would be: maybe this isn't the right game to play. Okay that aside considering I still see a lot of players running around in out dated gear I find it hard to believe doing old content is hard to get done, unless you're unwilling to lead.

You may not have friends from returning I know that happens, it happened to me after taking a year break a while back. I gained new friends by shouting/joining "old" content at the time. I also built up a rep in merit parties as being a good player which helped in gaining friends who were willing to help. It takes time, I understand that but then again that has always been the case.

Now as to the arguments about seeing people shouting for groups to do seal/+2 farming, or join in a delve group that is shouting. For the first one, they likely have to resort to shouting because their linkshell(if they have one) is not helping them out with it, plus shouts I kinda see as a last resort as it has one sitting in town likely doing nothing for who knows how long. And as to the delve stuff, right now you might be able to sneak in a cruor geared non-support, but that is getting harder to do.

A majority of my seals and +2 items came from shout groups. You're living in the past when it comes to large events, the concept of large linkshells doing events exclusively has in general died off. It's not about not getting help it's just that content in general has scaled back enough to allow for interacting with people who you haven't learned their play style(s).

Delve I agree for Plasm farming but that's actually due to the mechanics restricting players wanting to lead groups. There's only a few people who shout, the reason for that is they are people willing to lead, they also have the KI to take people in, and they have done some basic research.

As to Delve KI clears I still see people shouting for them. Again if you don't prescribe to "the ends justify the means" and level a job that is appealing while still easy to gear (WHM, SCH, BLM, RDM, COR, etc.) then you're going to have to go with leading a group or buying a clear.

At the end of all this expanding TotM doesn't make a "casual player" more appealing because they never made a player more appealing when they were relevant. Think about it a second, the most powerful TotM weapons were the staves in particular the magic damage and cure potency ones. Now prior to SoA when did you ever see a shout that read to the effect of: "BLM TotM Damage Staves (Yes, Please)" or "WHM TotM Cure Potency Staff (Yes, Please)"? I never did.

[Hawklaser]

2 I only see as a problem if you refuse to lead and run a group with what job you like (i.e. if you love BST then get the key atma you need to have a tanking pet) and build around that. People left in the game that aren't caught up are more than happy to be your sheep if you will lead them. That's the thing though you have to be willing to lead, this was true in the past for anything and is even more true now as those players with natural leading skills have built up friends they do things with or have moved on, in either case you can take over or wait to be someone else's sheep.

As I mentioned earlier, I see shouts as kind of a last resort, as usually can find something else to do than camp out in one of the zones yell works in. Used to try and build groups all the time to try and level DRG pre-ToAU, but more often than not, was a better use of my time to put up a seacom and go farm some stuff for gil as still needed gear as well. So until hit a total wall on the jobs I enjoy, will be a while before I go shouting for that stuff though if I see one when am free and passing through I will go on them, as would rather be doing what I can do instead of sitting in town for long periods of time.

9 and 10, considering this is what SE has stated will be the endgame content for a while isn't it logical that until you've gotten up to 6-7 you should be excluded?

Of course it is. Not saying that cruor armor DD should be going to these, as I don't want to touch them until get to a point I consider adequately geared for them. Just getting up to that point can be tricky without help or having specific jobs leveled.

If you aren't trying to skip several steps in the game's progression you wouldn't need to level another job to participate. However depending on what job you do enjoy that may mean waiting for people who're open minded, understand your job choice still works in X event, or leading your own group. If any of those aren't options you care for you'll find yourself in the same position I was in as a 95 Apoc DRK when NNI was the new thing to do. While I got 2 100 clears on DRK I got tired of waiting for a DD slot and chose to gear my SCH to give me that as an option. At that time I didn't feel like leading groups but I found that most people who were trying to lead hadn't bothered to research things and I ended up training them, instead of training them I decided to lead a static and we got 5 more pieces from KIs and I believe 4 more drops not counting the NQ/+1/+2/+3 items. The only thing hardcore or elite of the group I formed was 5 other players willing to research and make adjustments as we learned to play together.

Not trying to skip tiers myself, was more pointing out unless one has lots of helpful friends or linkshell members, or plenty of time to waste shouting for some things with no assurance will get people you need to do whatever is needed, its not easy getting above cruor gear and some of the simpler AH weapons, unless you happened to level specific jobs first, whether or not you enjoy them is a different matter.

First the honest (or as some say ass) response to this issue would be: maybe this isn't the right game to play. Okay that aside considering I still see a lot of players running around in out dated gear I find it hard to believe doing old content is hard to get done, unless you're unwilling to lead.

This was more due to back when it took multiple alliances to do things, never really had the time where could set aside 2hrs+ consistently to do some of the older endgame events... reason I say 2hrs+ is because I know how often some people don't get preparations done in advance or key members show up late. When things take 30-40m to do, much easier to set aside time for them.

You may not have friends from returning I know that happens, it happened to me after taking a year break a while back. I gained new friends by shouting/joining "old" content at the time. I also built up a rep in merit parties as being a good player which helped in gaining friends who were willing to help. It takes time, I understand that but then again that has always been the case.

Yeah, it does take time to rebuild up contacts. Though sometimes scheduling in general is an issue, and other times, there are just some things people don't really want to help with at all.

A majority of my seals and +2 items came from shout groups. You're living in the past when it comes to large events, the concept of large linkshells doing events exclusively has in general died off. It's not about not getting help it's just that content in general has scaled back enough to allow for interacting with people who you haven't learned their play style(s).

No issue with shouting to get things done, but personally if I am sitting in town shouting, its more because I got nothing else to do or already have a little bit of help lined up. And usually have plenty of other things could be doing than sitting in town. Also never said was expecting a whole shell to help out with lower NM's and such, there are some things where it is a pain to get one or two people to help with unless it directly ties into something they need too even within a linkshell. Getting one or two people to help out within a linkshell should be relatively easy to have happen, may not happen right when you ask, but should be doable within a linkshell without many problems. Though not everyone is going to have a really helpful linkshell.


So was more pointing out the option for those that are not already geared, and lacking a good support group is pretty much Bayld gear. Though when look at several jobs the Bayld gear is not what they should be going for outside of a few equipment slots. And for some players the non-combat Bayld fetch quests will get old fast and cause them to loose interest, even more so if they appear behind obstructions that are no longer being removed when the focus shifts away from those areas. Which can lead to issues when future content leaps happen unless new semi-easy base gears keep happening, which starts to defeat the purpose of doing older content at all unless it has an irreplaceable reward like the Divine Might earrings or CoP rings currently.

-Actually I helped quite a few people doing CoP after I was done. I stopped doing it because 95% of the people didn't take the time to farm weakness items, or any actual prep work before doing the missions. They just wanted me and the few others who were past it to get them through it.

Ended up doing the first three Crags like 6 times when level caps were in place to get people up to a point where I could make progress. So there were people that would help with earlier, but they were rare for a number of reasons. More often than not, was more because they didn't want to do certain parts again. I'd still go back and do them again with the level cap in place, but many people I knew didn't want to touch them again.