So is delve for new lvl 99 players?

[Luvbunny]

The thing is, the more skilled you are generally means the better gear you have as a result...

Not really, it just means you have more time than most people to play the game and grind more for your gears. Or in the case of Voidwatch - you get very lucky!! Or in Relic, you have more money than the rest of us. Or you use your blm or whm or beastmaster job to seal farms for your other jobs. Skill is your willingness to read information about that said jobs of your choice, then test the job abilities, and figure out what those actually do, and what subjobs combination is needed for certain things, and do more testing with your macro, and more fighting to make sure they work, and more practice, and more testing on soloing mobs or NMs, dealing with adds, playing defensively and not blow your entire tp in do or die mentality, how to kite, and time your macro on spells etc. And yeah, eventually, more gearing, which means more grinding for your Magian Trials weapons, or your gears.

[Zagen]

Not really, it just means you have more time than most people to play the game and grind more for your gears. Or in the case of Voidwatch - you get very lucky!! Or in Relic, you have more money than the rest of us. Or you use your blm or whm or beastmaster job to seal farms for your other jobs. Skill is your willingness to read information about that said jobs of your choice, then test the job abilities, and figure out what those actually do, and what subjobs combination is needed for certain things, and do more testing with your macro, and more fighting to make sure they work, and more practice, and more testing on soloing mobs or NMs, dealing with adds, playing defensively and not blow your entire tp in do or die mentality, how to kite, and time your macro on spells etc. And yeah, eventually, more gearing, which means more grinding for your Magian Trials weapons, or your gears.

What you've described is called research. Skill is the ability to apply knowledge gained from said research.

The point still stands a more skilled player will attain gear faster than someone with less skill. In many cases even faster than a player with less skill that happens to have more play time available to them.

[Sfchakan]

Not really, it just means you have more time than most people to play the game and grind more for your gears. Or in the case of Voidwatch - you get very lucky!! Or in Relic, you have more money than the rest of us. Or you use your blm or whm or beastmaster job to seal farms for your other jobs. Skill is your willingness to read information about that said jobs of your choice, then test the job abilities, and figure out what those actually do, and what subjobs combination is needed for certain things, and do more testing with your macro, and more fighting to make sure they work, and more practice, and more testing on soloing mobs or NMs, dealing with adds, playing defensively and not blow your entire tp in do or die mentality, how to kite, and time your macro on spells etc. And yeah, eventually, more gearing, which means more grinding for your Magian Trials weapons, or your gears.

You're describing the desire to improve and the motivation to research how, along with actually trying. Half of the stuff you listed are very feasible accomplishments for people of all playstyles and times.

You are part of what's wrong with these forums. They let everyone voice their opinion, no matter how worthless it is.

Personally, I love the new direction and approach the new director is taking. Some of us don't want everything dumb downed b/c unmotivated people can't steamroll it.

[Hayward]

You're describing the desire to improve and the motivation to research how, along with actually trying. Half of the stuff you listed are very feasible accomplishments for people of all playstyles and times.

You are part of what's wrong with these forums. They let everyone voice their opinion, no matter how worthless it is.

Personally, I love the new direction and approach the new director is taking. Some of us don't want everything dumb downed b/c unmotivated people can't steamroll it.

If you think that line of BS holds any water, you try and level a job like SMN or BST to 99, get the Empyrean Armor sets to +2, and see how far you get on those jobs (no hopping on the bandwagon job-of-the-month [hint...hint]). The direction we're headed encourages people like YOU to throw people who play those two jobs, among others, under the bus, all in the name of being the "MOST HARDCORE PLAYER ON EARTH!!!". I'm all for progression, but exclusionary content is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

[Zagen]

If you think that line of BS holds any water, you try and level a job like SMN or BST to 99, get the Empyrean Armor sets to +2, and see how far you get on those jobs (no hopping on the bandwagon job-of-the-month [hint...hint]). The direction we're headed encourages people like YOU to throw people who play those two jobs, among others, under the bus, all in the name of being the "MOST HARDCORE PLAYER ON EARTH!!!". I'm all for progression, but exclusionary content is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

What content is there that excludes BST and SMN? I mean every event I've ever attended has never said X job isn't allowed with the exception of the level 60 ENMs and limit break fights at level 70 (except GEO and RUN they're hosed there). You're confusing the content with the player base.

[Karbuncle]

If you think that line of BS holds any water, you try and level a job like SMN or BST to 99, get the Empyrean Armor sets to +2, and see how far you get on those jobs (no hopping on the bandwagon job-of-the-month [hint...hint]). The direction we're headed encourages people like YOU to throw people who play those two jobs

Okay, I'll take this challenge, mostly cause its impossible to lose. I have both SMN and BST, the problem isn't that the players are throwing the jobs away, its that these jobs both suck. Thats not player opinion, that mathematical fact. I have both of these jobs leveled, and while BST can come kinda-close to good DD numbers, SMN is just attrocious at everything its designed to do. Sh*tty mediocre buffs (sans 2), crappy Damage potential, Avatars have laughable DPS, and the job itself is resorted to its support job for any other uses outside of its mediocre pets.

But besides those two points, those jobs have their niche. SMN Has Alexander, and to a lesser extent, Shock Squall... which gets it in quite a few events, even Legion and ADL... and BST is the king of Solo, including in new Endgame, which a lot of new players suck at because they've never known BST before Abyssea, how to solo, Charm sets, Pet kiting, so on, so forth, so all these new T~VT mobs are wasted on a wave of NurseryNoobzuna's and their incompetence at playing this job. But despite that, They still rock in Dynamis and other Low-man/Oldschool content, which is actually good for what it is, money farming.

Are you the type of BST who doesn't know what Charm is? IDK, I'm not accusing you of such, simply that its a forgotten art to many. But the point of the matter is, both of those jobs have their niche, and while I'm not saying either are good or super useful, the players didn't design the game or the jobs, the Devs did... While these jobs are physically able to access said content, its true that those jobs are mediocre.

I wanted to address this seperately,

, among others, under the bus, all in the name of being the "MOST HARDCORE PLAYER ON EARTH!!!".

Being efficient and wanting to not waste your time letting unique snowflakes pretend their job isn't flawed from the ground up in design and execution isn't being Elitist, its being reasonable. If i'm doing NNI, plain and simple, I'm neither coming on SMN or inviting one, they just aren't useful for that event, and tossing this "EVERYONE WHO DOES THINGS THE GOOD WAY IS ELITIST" attitude around just makes you look foolish and unreasonably insane at best, and downright Starcade at worst. Drop the "If they have better gear, they're elitist pricks" attitude and maybe you could try objectively looking at this situation rather than seeing it through angry red eyes.

[quote]I'm all for progression, but exclusionary content is exactly the wrong way to go about it.[/QUOTE ]

While i agree, I challenge you to create an MMO with a 10 year old battle system and 22 jobs, and make every sinlge job both unique and 100% Equally useful.

To put it boldly, it. is. Impossible.

The new director has the right mindset when he told us that its unreasonable and impossible to balance all 22 jobs to be useful in every single event, so he encourages us to level a variety of jobs and use the one best for the situation. Its just the best option. I love SMN, i love THF, hell I even enjoy paying PUP, all three of these jobs are less than wanted, but that doesn't squander any fun i have on them. I don't judge my job or how i play it based on how useful other people think it is.

I know THF is pretty low on the DD totem pole, even with a 99 Mandau, But it doesn't stop me. I know Melee SMN is Lawlzy, but it doesn't stop me from trying to make people go "woah..." that the potential is higher than they thought (though still mediocre, just higher than one could expect), and I still play PUP to solo, even in Reives, setting my WHM auto up on the root, keeping my party alive, and DDing like a boss.

The game is as fun as you let it be, and creating perfect balance is impossible with this game, but they're doing a good job (Sans RDM, SMN, BST, and maybe 1-2 I'm missing) trying to balance all jobs.

Again, Hayward, not that you're a bad player, IDK you, I don't know your jobs, i don't know how you play or if you have RME's etc.. This is just a general musing, the failings are there, and people need to accept there is 0 chance, even in new MMO's, for Devs to create ~20 unique and perfectly 100% Equal jobs without it just being pure dull.

[Sfchakan]

If you think that line of BS holds any water, you try and level a job like SMN or BST to 99, get the Empyrean Armor sets to +2, and see how far you get on those jobs (no hopping on the bandwagon job-of-the-month [hint...hint]). The direction we're headed encourages people like YOU to throw people who play those two jobs, among others, under the bus, all in the name of being the "MOST HARDCORE PLAYER ON EARTH!!!". I'm all for progression, but exclusionary content is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

Want to know how I know you guys haven't done Legion? You both have SMN and are crying you aren't able to do it. I usually try to bring 2 to every Legion run I host. Most of the strategies posted online involve bringing multiple SMNs to PD difficult mobs. Merited BPs do great dmg on the turtles and other mobs.

As I said, you aren't trying, so stop complaining.

[Karbuncle]

The main issue with legion is the huge gear check in combination with the party requirements:

Challenge Accepted. Been in 2 (two) Successful Legion Shells, Pre-Nerf and Post-Nerf. So shall we?

-Do all of your whms have arise?

Not a single one.

-Do you have two DHarp bards?

Nope, Think one had Ghorn, had more COR's though, I think on a run or two we may have picked up a BRD with a Daurd.

-Do you have three apamajas II + stunset schs?

Had 2 SCH's who were there for various reason that had Stun Sets, though I don't see how being able to play your job made this bullet point, as any respectable SCH should have a Stun set, and APDKPAJAMAS isn't required, only helpful.

-Do you have two parties of R/E/M DD?

Kinda, I know we had some 90 EMPs, Think a single 99 Mythic SAM joined us most often, had an Apoc DRK... Not much else.

Not like an 85-90 Empyrean is super hard to obtain, But Yah, Thats the one thing most of them had, though i think there was a DD or two with the WoE weapon.

and a Relic can be solo'd to 95 by even the most casual of casuals, just takes time, investment, work, effort... Those things.

-Do you have an ochain PLD?

Another Yes, We had one holding the mobs. But you could shout and find an Ochain PLD in probably 5 minutes or less, they're insanely common cause Ochain, while harder than some Empy's, are still lulz easy... If you're not lazy (like i am), You could probably get one in 2-3 Weeks if you've got liberal playtime and motivation, 2-3 Months if you're sooper-dooper lazy.

Having all these at the same time can be quite the challenge, when previously the game pretty much required a party or less, and if it required 18 (i.e VW) the gear didn't have top notch on practically every party member with a high amount of party coordination.

This is all pre embrava nerf, I'm not sure how the event has changed afterwards.

I will however break to say, I agree that this event is a little absurd, while not as hard as people constantly describe it (hint: most of the time its not your gear, its the level of idiots you play with... Sorry), Its still a bit of crazy for the path the game was going in at the time.

HOWEVER< i think the biggest reason Legion was a failure was that most of the rewards were just rediculous sidegrades, and even a bigger handful of them were just pure sh*t, half the drops looked like they could easily have come from Tier 1 Abyssea NMs or Walk of Echoes... the other half was so situational it was mediocre. The rewards just flat sucked except for maybe 1-2 pieces for SMN.

Again, You don't need all of the above, and difficulty is directly proportional to the intelligence of the group, while there is a gear check (Hint: DESIGN ASPECT OF MMOS), its not as severe if your players know what they're doing. stun sets, etc etc etc.

------------------------

POINT 2!

Looks like this is a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" in the case of the development team. Accessible gear (Empyrean +2 Armor, for example) just is not acceptable to some people

Its a little hypocritical to mention Ego's then go on a tangent about how we're all elitists or ruining the game and stuff.

But lets adress the point. Empyrean+2 is pretty much accessible to anyone short of completely lazy, that crap can pretty much be Solo'd now, hell I think a BST Can solo it. Its stupid easy and, did i mention, STUPID easy? If people are having trouble with abyssea content, they're doomed from the beginning.

And no, before anyone mentions it, Its not because of RL, Jobs, blahblah, I have been in and out of work over my FFXI Career, But I worked full time for a good chunk of it, and even now I work full time at a daycare, and still managed to access Skirmish inbetween having a life. Using playtime or "RL" as an excuse is basically saying "I'm lazy, and could get the gear, But instead of acknowledging my laziness, I'll blame the Devs for making it too hard, and Call anyone who tells me i can an elitist".

People use RL as a crutch/excuse for being lazy then blame anything they can because they aren't spoon-fed progression. Empyrean Armor is probably the easiest, short of Reive armor, things to obtain in this game that are unreasonable powerful for the lack of time you need to invest in them. You could get a piece of +2 Armor in a matter of 2hours if you know what you're doing, and for a super casual, you could probably get a piece a day if you can make time for it.

Even if you're casual and can only play 2 hours a day once a week, If you're motivated, you can get your armor in a month or so. And if you can only play 2hours a day once a week, you need to realize there is no MMO for you, and that if this is your schedule, accept that unfortunately there is no content designed specifically to cater to that demographic of people that offers uber top-tier spoon-fed gear, and there never really will be. I don't like busting out the harsh truths but if you can't put in the same time as anyone else, you shouldn't expect the same rewards.

I wouldn't work 20 hours a week then demand a salary for a full time employee simply because I feel entitled to it, Its just looney.

One question the developers need to ask themselves: What point is there to making gear drops in content that doesn't allow most jobs to take advantage of it?

I can answer this: People have multiple jobs.

Edit: The above post makes my point for me before I could even post this. Too many people seem to want Empyrean +2 armor to become as meaningless as Relic Armor became at 75...and for what? To inflate their already out-of-control egos?

Can't speak for him, But Empyrean+2 is unlikely to completely faze out of date for some jobs, but not for all... Its just going to happen as all gear does, but its still a splended, and in some mage jobs, irreplacable gear set.

Plus, While i know I have an ego on me, You'd be arrogant not to realize that you sir also have one that can be seen from Orbit.

All in fun though, I mean, You seem reasonable, you just need to chill in your posts (admittedly so do it) and try not to just assuming everyone who disagrees with you or has better gear/more time to play is a "no life" or "elitist", cause its not only insulting to those of us with a life who have this stuff, it makes you look like a bigot and ignorant person, which ain't cool.

Edit: And my entire relic was self-funded and farmed with friends. It took me months, and I worked hard for it, Bought very little currency that wasn't gil from Selling currency i got from my Dynamis runs... If i can do it anyone can... I hate grinding >_>

[Sfchakan]

I will however break to say, I agree that this event is a little absurd, while not as hard as people constantly describe it (hint: most of the time its not your gear, its the level of idiots you play with... Sorry), Its still a bit of crazy for the path the game was going in at the time.

HOWEVER< i think the biggest reason Legion was a failure was that most of the rewards were just rediculous sidegrades, and even a bigger handful of them were just pure sh*t, half the drops looked like they could easily have come from Tier 1 Abyssea NMs or Walk of Echoes... the other half was so situational it was mediocre. The rewards just flat sucked except for maybe 1-2 pieces for SMN.

A few other items are/were worth the investment, like Duplus Grip, Hugin feet abj (top notch for multiple jobs to TP in), Fulad Zerah, and some others. I will definitely agree that there should have been more quality rewards, though. The majority of people in my shell want the same 2-3 items per hall and not much else.

[Karbuncle]

I was under the impression Fulad Zereh was worse than Aramada-1 With Augments, and essentially a 30mil town piece D:?

Duplus Grip, however, i think was the one fine example of "The least they could do... no.. really" in terms of upgrades :P, But still a solid upgrade, full and agreed.