PLD tanks Vs. MNK tanks *Ding* FIGHT!

[Greatguardian]

He's working under the idea that both jobs will be sitting at capped TE, and the damage each job deals per strike only needs to make up for the natural 60VE/second decay all players have. Even if a MNK does more damage per round, the excess Enmity-from-damage is irrelevant as long as TE remains capped. In this case, it's a solid assertion. PLD can "keep hate" off a MNK assuming that the PLD is not losing their CE to damage taken.

[Zagen]

He's working under the idea that both jobs will be sitting at capped TE, and the damage each job deals per strike only needs to make up for the natural 60VE/second decay all players have. Even if a MNK does more damage per round, the excess Enmity-from-damage is irrelevant as long as TE remains capped. In this case, it's a solid assertion. PLD can "keep hate" off a MNK assuming that the PLD is not losing their CE to damage taken.

Hmmm didn't think of that being the assumption well if that is the case then I also agree in that situation a PLD would be able to keep hate better than a MNK.

I was assuming both PLD and MNK would get hit for the same amount so they would have equal CE loss (excluding counter/shield procs)

Edit: Had a random thought... If shield procs had 0 hate loss like counter wouldn't that be a decent step into the right direction?

[TheDirtyHobo]

Edit: Had a random thought... If shield procs had 0 hate loss like counter wouldn't that be a decent step into the right direction?

Again, missing the forest for all the trees, etc. PLD already keeps hate as well as MNK, maybe infinitesimally less so that the mob doesn't look at them, but they still should have capped hate and will hold it off the squishier jobs like a BLM or WHM. People who bitch and moan that PLD "can't get hate" on any longer than 2 minutes fight are PLDs that suck at doing their job because they turtle too hard.

The point is that PLD doesn't do as much damage, which leads to a longer fight (which, ironically, leads to even more total damage taken). The only way to 'fix' PLD is make them do more damage, which throws the whole offensively- vs. defensively-oriented job spectrum out of whack even further than it already is. PLD was probably the only job that I genuinely enjoyed levelling, and I hate to say it, but it's just dead in the water.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

The only way to 'fix' PLD is make them do more damage, which throws the whole offensively- vs. defensively-oriented job spectrum out of whack even further than it already is.

Honestly, I think that damage has already been done by adding good mitigation to SAM and MNK... or arguably even further back with the addition of NIN. A lot of the MNK tank arguments are just rehashes of the old PLD vs. NIN: shadows are better defense than Defense, it's better to have a tank that is also a DD than a tank that is just a tank, tank hate is fine if you have DDs be careful/use Trick Attack but why bother when a DD+tank can hold hate without it, etc.

There hasn't been a meaningful offense vs. defense tradeoff in this game (in general, although some particular jobs have one) since RotZ, which was before US release. There are some jobs good at attacking, some jobs good at defending, and some jobs good at both (leaving aside other roles like healing, buffing, debuffing, and crowd control). The unique part of the problem today is not that PLD is good at neither, but that the entire role of being good at defense is now unnecessary and in many fights counterproductive. If all-out offense, shadows, and Cure V/VI can get you through a fight alive, why bother bringing a job that specializes in mitigation, or using the group tactics needed to allow them to take hits instead of someone more vulnerable?

"More vulnerable" doesn't actually mean "could die at any moment" anymore like it used to, and that's the real problem with tanking today, IMO. We need more mobs that will Deadly Hold (or whatever) a low-DEF job for 1.5x their maximum HP.