Is anyone particularly happy with the new gear from New Salvage?

[detlef]

Probably possible if you're the type of person who uses hacks to get what they want and thus has the best gear possible, but then I don't really care much about them. I actually find it rather sad that people would want to be like that but that's a different matter. I have done Arrapago Remnants with 3 people easily, even when fulmination lands, but it's much safer and much more efficient to take more people and especially safer to have others in control of the characters.... as the game was intended.

I can't figure out what your deal is. You've made quite a few head-scratching posts in this thread. You appear to be against multi-boxing. You appear to be anti-Nyzul (even though, as I stated in this thread, it's extremely accessible to anybody right now). You also stated that we should be doing Salvage for fun and not for drops.

I can't figure out what you're trying to argue. Are you anti-elitist, or are you just using Salvage as a way to complain about Nyzul? You don't like windower? I'm half expecting you to say that gear swapping is cheating.

[Asymptotic]

Byrth go reread my post, I never said the zones were impossible only that they require skill and coordination to do. Three manning something is not the same as tri-boxing and you know it. You are not tri-boxing HQ hydra, not with that setup anyhow.

1.) Byrth Tri-Boxes Salvage as DNC/WHM/BRD
2.) I've Tri-boxed Arrapago as DNC/SCH/THF (Did not skip any NMs)

There are plenty of reports of tri-boxing HQ Hydra with various setups (all of which include a BRD or SCH, iirc).

[Jaall]

I can't figure out what your deal is. You've made quite a few head-scratching posts in this thread. You appear to be against multi-boxing. You appear to be anti-Nyzul (even though, as I stated in this thread, it's extremely accessible to anybody right now). You also stated that we should be doing Salvage for fun and not for drops.

I can't figure out what you're trying to argue. Are you anti-elitist, or are you just using Salvage as a way to complain about Nyzul? You don't like windower? I'm half expecting you to say that gear swapping is cheating.

I'm anti elitist like a lot of people, I like nyzul so not sure why I should complain about it, but people seem to be comparing the 2 so I have to include it in what I'm saying. I like the idea of windower and have nothing against it, but I play on Xbox and actually where did you get the idea that I was against it?? I never mentioned anything about being against it? Gear swapping is cheating? Lol wow you really have misread a lot of what I've been saying.

Basically, if I really have to sum up for people (Which I've already done, if you had read through a few of my posts thoroughly) - Salvage II is easy enough for the gear to be worse than NNI, because that's where the comparison is. People are stuck in the past about salvage and think salvage II should be better than NI, even if it's easier. They still think the gear should be better even though it is a lot easier to obtain. My second point is, yes it takes a while to get but so did NNI when it was first released and people should remember Salvage II has only just been released, and SE have shown plans to make NQ gear drop rates better which imo will cut out a lot of the time needed in salvage I. Last point - people tri-boxing anything in this game doesn't annoy me, and if they can then congratulations, but I feel slightly sorry for them. I personally see any online game whether it's an MMO, FPS etc as a community game, and if they have to play by themselves and effectively cheat just to feel they are good enough, that's a little bit sad in my honest opinion. But like I said, I have nothing against people doing that if it's what they really want.

My posts have just been about making the point that Salvage II is not a waste of time like everyones been saying, and it's very clear to see that if anyone goes and "hangs out" near the permit NPC. It's pretty much packed at any time of day and people are always running around alzadaal. And the gear itself is pretty good for what its meant to be. There are a few pieces that aren't as great, I admit, but nobodies forcing anyone to get them, or even do Salvage for that matter. And the whole thing about not finding people - I never seem to have much trouble finding 3 other willing people, even in JP primetime. I think this post is just full of people butthurt because SE decided so switch the difficulty of Salvage with Nyzul. Salvage is still as fun as it used to be, maybe even more so because it doesn't take a year to finish 1 piece.

Does that sum up enough of what I've been saying for you?

[detlef]

I'm anti elitist like a lot of people, I like nyzul so not sure why I should complain about it, but people seem to be comparing the 2 so I have to include it in what I'm saying. I like the idea of windower and have nothing against it, but I play on Xbox and actually where did you get the idea that I was against it?? I never mentioned anything about being against it? Gear swapping is cheating? Lol wow you really have misread a lot of what I've been saying.

Probably possible if you're the type of person who uses hacks to get what they want and thus has the best gear possible, but then I don't really care much about them. I actually find it rather sad that people would want to be like that but that's a different matter. I have done Arrapago Remnants with 3 people easily, even when fulmination lands, but it's much safer and much more efficient to take more people and especially safer to have others in control of the characters.... as the game was intended.

Okay well, this quote sure makes you sounds like a bitter console player who thinks you can’t win Nyzul without using hacks. I was joking about the gear swapping, but if you search for a poster named Rosina you might understand.

Basically, if I really have to sum up for people (Which I've already done, if you had read through a few of my posts thoroughly) - Salvage II is easy enough for the gear to be worse than NNI, because that's where the comparison is. People are stuck in the past about salvage and think salvage II should be better than NI, even if it's easier. They still think the gear should be better even though it is a lot easier to obtain. My second point is, yes it takes a while to get but so did NNI when it was first released and people should remember Salvage II has only just been released, and SE have shown plans to make NQ gear drop rates better which imo will cut out a lot of the time needed in salvage I. Last point - people tri-boxing anything in this game doesn't annoy me, and if they can then congratulations, but I feel slightly sorry for them. I personally see any online game whether it's an MMO, FPS etc as a community game, and if they have to play by themselves and effectively cheat just to feel they are good enough, that's a little bit sad in my honest opinion. But like I said, I have nothing against people doing that if it's what they really want.

I actually read every one of your posts. I think Salvage is straightforward and easy enough to actually do, but is too much of a grind for the reward. Especially people play “as the game was intended” with 3-4 other people as you said. If you run with 3 other people and split an average of 8 plans per run (and you probably agree that this is very much on the high end), that’s 25 runs for a body +1 piece. Which puts you at 4 months to finish a +1 set, assuming you go every single night, assuming your group does exactly the runs that everybody needs. It also assumes good luck with 45s and already completed base pieces. I’ve made my peace with the quality of the gear. I just think that for what we’re getting, the grind is a bit extreme. Not only that, but if you are focusing on farming the same plans, it gets very repetitive.

Personally I generally duo with a friend and occasionally bring a third person, but I envy the people who do 3-box it.

My posts have just been about making the point that Salvage II is not a waste of time like everyones been saying, and it's very clear to see that if anyone goes and "hangs out" near the permit NPC. It's pretty much packed at any time of day and people are always running around alzadaal. And the gear itself is pretty good for what its meant to be. There are a few pieces that aren't as great, I admit, but nobodies forcing anyone to get them, or even do Salvage for that matter. And the whole thing about not finding people - I never seem to have much trouble finding 3 other willing people, even in JP primetime. I think this post is just full of people butthurt because SE decided so switch the difficulty of Salvage with Nyzul. Salvage is still as fun as it used to be, maybe even more so because it doesn't take a year to finish 1 piece.

It’s not a waste of time. The reward/effort ratio is probably just a little lower than people were expecting or would be satisfied with. I also think there are a lot of people who aren't going to give it a chance because they don't have the base Salvage pieces to upgrade.

[Monchat]

Zhayolm Remnants II and Arrapago Remnants II will eat you alive, you'd be forced to skip NM's or not kill off both MB's.

what the hell? Arrapago is the easiest and fastest zone. Why would arrapago eat you alive? Idk about zhayolm ive yet to do it.. And arrap bosses is not even worth being called a boss, the NQ has nothing especially damahing, the HQ has ONE bad move thats easilly dealt with.

A Have you even fought Dvergr or Hydra and their HQ counterparts? Dvergr will do always TP move -> nuke and after 50% that TP move tends to be Necropurge / Necrobane followed by Fire V / Firaga III. If you don't have a MDT set on when that happens your going to die.

no need for MDT. Actually it casts so fast that you'd had to full time MDT which is stupid. WHM's cureskin are that overpowered, use cure spam love them. I only use 1500 MP typically on that boss. Sure I had trouble with a RDM healer on that boss, I only had to make a fresh WHM, thats it.

A Fire V to the face when your maximum HP is ~700 isn't nice.

fire 5 does ~1200 and less with cureskin. My max HP while curse is 1000. Learn to merit HP, and MNK. And it will not immediately use a tier V after necrobane, there is 2-3 second delay, more than enough to cursna and cure.

And where do you get off saying Khimaira Prideleader is "easy"? Not only does it have the chessy Fulmination but it also has the even cheesier Lithic Breath (weakness + damage). Those NM's are not impossible to beat but they do require the players have proper gear sets and coordinate a strategy. They need to be on the ball and actually know their job instead of being AI robots.

You dont need that since i can 2-box them not only on my main char (best geared MNK), but also on my gimp MNK (lv 90 cap gear). A NM that can be done by DD+WHM is abbysea-tier of easyness. Has a bad move? ok let me pull out my infinite-MP-CureV-spam-WHM-card. WHM, the only really overpowered job in today's ffxi.

[Jaall]

I agree with you that it's a grind compared to todays endgame events, but that's only because people have made it that way. It's nowhere near a grind in comparison to 75 days so peoples complaints in that respect are a little invalid. People seem to compare it to 2 things, NNI and old salvage. Salvage II rests very nicely in the middle of the 2. Slight grind for gear that make nice additions to, but not as good as NNI gear, but also nowhere near as hard as NNI.

And FYI I have FFXI on both pc and xbox, and prefer playing it on 360. It's a personal choice so I'm really not a "bitter console player" at all. Even if I had access to hacks etc which you could say I do, as does every other PC player, I wouldn't use them because that's not how I like to play my games. There's much more satisfaction from earning what you use. And I don't have anything against those who do use cheats and hacks, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why they would want to. Like I mentioned before, it eludes me a little, that's all.

[Zhronne]

Good we're better off without them.
Not possible.

If six casual people can do the event, the one hardcore asshat can tri-box the event by min-maxing.

I concur, but maybe people were expecting the kind of event that requires you more than a pt of casuals and 5-6 good players to be completed, with slightly better rewards too, maybe.

For instance having the second alternative set share the basic set bonus and being used in synergy with it would have been a fantastic idea opening up to a wide range of possibilities for players.
Perhaps too many maybe?

Dunno, in the end I can't complain, not even doing Salvo II atm, got no friends interested and don't really want to go with random people I don't know.

[Afania]

Still, one out of four zones requires more than two hands? Um, okay? I'm happy enough with it (as I said, I do the event and feel it is one of the best ones SE has released in a long time), but the feeling I got when I steamrolled Zhayolm and Arrapago on the release day wasn't joy as much as disappointment. 4 people for Zhayolm, 3 people for Arrapago. We popped and killed literally every NM and NQ/HQ bosses both runs with no information at all going in to it. "Oh look, a gear in a room of Lamia. Lets kill it!", "What's this chigoe doing here? It won't aggro!" etc. They might as well have put <KILL ME TO POP NMs> as some of the monsters' names.

When I think of Salvage, I think of Frogs being a mystery for over a year because no one can figure out how to force them to pop. I think of the first LAC strategy being 5 Rangers death zerging it. I don't think of a DRK, MNK, THF, and recently reactivated WHM having an optimally efficient run on release day with no prior information. I think of heated arguments over whether MNK + SAM is better than MNK + MNK as primary DDs for Salvage, whether Monk should be given weapon cell priority, etc. It was part puzzle, part min/maxing extravaganza.

There is no reason to min/max jobs if endgame could be done without min/maxed jobs. Currently Legion is the weak justification for min/maxing. If Salvage II had been as challenging as the original Salvage, it would have become the new justification and I wouldn't have to do Legion anymore.

If endgame can only be done with min/maxing jobs, then I will probably never clear salvage, the amount of ppl that I know of tried to min/max jobs are very, very few. And I have quite a large connection. Min/maxing jobs shouldn't be a "requirement" to do the event, rather to provide "advantage". Those who min/max jobs often don't play with casual players either, so it's unlikely I can do salvage2 with elite players to begin with.

The fact that you can tri-box salvage2 is the advantage you got by min-maxing jobs, it's not something everyone can do. Once I tried to do AR2 with 4 casual players with average gears, and we failed to kill armored chariot fast enough to pop HQ. Another time I do with MNK double mage setup for AR2 and MNK takes forever to kill the NM, sometimes there are WHM run out of MP too.

Any decent player actively participate in EGLS with well geared melee/mage jobs and multiple gear set can probably trio box and get clear. But as a casual player in social LS, the difficulty is just fine. In fact recently I just started to set gear requirement for anyone want to come to salvage2 or else ppl with no AF3+2 wanted to come and just made it harder. And I haven't set any gear requirement for any event since Prov/B.rex(before 3rd atmacite/weakened item)/legion.

Min-maxing jobs as a requirement also often means X job only.

I understand where the frustration came from though, you spent the time to min/max and it's not required to get the event done. However I think ppl min/max jobs are mostly do it for fun/sense of accomplishment to perform better, and it shouldn't be hit or miss for anyone else that doesn't min/max jobs.

[Zhronne]

The biggest issue I can see for Salvage 2 is the small amount of plans and the limited variety you can get in each run.
The effort/reward ratio is already not as good as other events when you min/max, and it drops to seriously low level if you go with 6 people, which is probably a likely amount for casual player.

It would require a lot of time (i.e. effort) to complete those pieces, while those same people can probably convey the same effort in other events and get better rewards or equal rewards with less effort.
Do you see what I mean?

It's obvious and righteous that "elite" players are able to perform better, do things better and complete stuff earlier. It would be wrong if it were otherwise to be honest. But at the same time you, as a developer, need to carefully balance an event so it doesn't get too fast for elites, but not too slow either for all the others.
I mean, from this perspective it's almost like SE is suggesting you to duo/trio box Salvage on your own so that you can complete your gear faster and get more alex, but in an event where you need a minimum of 3 people up to a maximum of 18 that sounds like a real paradox.

This is the kind of situation where individual drops spawning for each single player instead than on the treasure pool would have been convenient.
That, in addition to a maximum number of people of 6.
That way it would have promoted party play instead of leading people over duo/trio boxing so they can make the amount of plans they get at least decent.

[Byrth]

If Salvage II was an event that I could trio with a real BRD and WHM, I would be very pleased with it. The problem is that I can clear it with myself playing DNC, BRD, and WHM at the same time. This means that the event does not require very skilled support or uncoordinated movements. If it was a more difficult event and required a little more strategy, maybe something as foreign and strange as "pulling" (or anything else that requires more than me parking my mules at 20'+ and hitting my macros while I aggro and then kill monsters on DNC) then I would be happy to have to take other people along and wouldn't care if I only had one Skadi +1 piece complete instead of three at this point. The problem is that it doesn't require even that much skill and that FFXI punishes bringing more people than you need.

I have no delusions about my tri-boxing ability. My mules perform much worse than a real BRD or a real WHM and, when I'm using them, my performance on DNC suffers too. I don't enjoy multiboxing and find it incredibly frustrating (especially when things are going poorly/I hit the wrong macro because I'm on the wrong character/etc.) Still, why should I bother two friends to trio an event with me and take a third of their drops when the event doesn't need that many hands?

For instance, I know that MNK + WHM can duo Arrapago II easily (because friends do it). It is kinder of me to DC them in and then tribox my own run than it would be for me to come along and "help" them out when I'm not needed. That's just how it shakes out. Other than Voidwatch, FFXI only penalizes bringing more people than are needed to do an event.


Also, min-maxing obviously doesn't mean X-job only or I wouldn't be able to clear these zones using a Tarutaru DNC as the only DD. As far as I can see, one well-geared DD (or two less well-geared DDs), one support job (like BRD or COR), and one healer (WHM, SCH, or RDM) is about all that should be necessary to clear any zone comfortably almost regardless of your skill level. That said, non-traditional setups can work too. I know that at least one person has been posting huge Magic Burst BP pictures on BG lately against the Cerberus and Hydra bosses, which means he's going to Salvage on Summoner. Using the correct strategy for each zone will ensure you get all the way through as long as you bring enough damage and support. Even if your execution isn't perfect the first time, give it a few tries and it'll get better.