So why do we have the worst Espells?

[Demon6324236]

Subbing BLU such as in your example, your Enspell-IIs should be starting at about 26 damage, capping at 52 damage. Using Enspell-Is your damage is 30 per swing with the ability to proc on extra hits such as our native Double Attack from Temper, which is 20%, this is of course assuming you have 500 Enhancing Magic skill with gear and merits. So 26 damage that grows, or 30 damage that does not, sounds like En-1s should lose, but then you count in our Double Attack, 20% +gear. Lets assume I am TPing in my full DT set because whatever it is I'm fighting is hitting that hard, and I must full time it. En-IIs might have some use, because I will probably have only that 20% DA, and my overall DPS should be lower with En-Is.

Now, where your wrong. There is never a time to TP in any Enhancing Magic gear, ever. Your lowering your DPS and taking more damage by being stupid enough to do it, Haste gear is alot of extra damage, -DT gear is alot of help if your getting hit hard, Attack and Double Attack gear are great for damage. So any option your not taking here your failing for. I can not think of any slot you could ever put Enhancing Magic in without losing out on something, and most of the time from relatively easy gear to get.

[Doombringer]

This is the point; the "worst case scenario" you just described is pretty much the only time you should be meleeing on RDM in the first place. If you're dual-wielding, you should be on a different job. Therefore, Enspell II are actually more useful than Enspell I, as the only time you're using Enspell I is when you're dual-wielding, and the only time you're dual-wielding on RDM is when you're second-classing yourself before you even leave your MH.

I feel like this is the crux of the issue right here, I have WILDLY different opinions on when it is or is not appropriate to melee on rdm.

In my opinion, if you are in a situation where you are forced to single wield (lets use /sch for example) then there must be a REASON for that.
Maybe the mob can inflict crippling status ailments and you need addendum white?
Maybe the mob is capable of dealing lots of damage, so you need the mp saved by light arts?
Maybe you have a huge casting load that can be mitigated by accession?
Maybe you expect tons of agro or linking, enough to justify manifestation for sleepga?


There are plenty of solid arguments for not subbing nin or dancer, but they are all ALSO fairly solid arguments for just not meleeing at all. You're contributing minimal damage because of the /sch sub, while also subjecting yourself to all the bad stuff that's CAUSING you to choose the /sch sub. So I don't think I would ever deem it prudent to be meleeing while subbing sch.


BUT! What if you DON'T need all that?
What if you're only expecting the occasional link/agro? What if sleep/2, bind, break, and gravity/2 are enough crowd control?
What if there's nothing TO -na?
What if the mobs DON'T spam huge damage attacks, or if your friend is a thf or a nin who will only need a little healing to keep him fighting fit? (But still some so they don't die the death of a thousand cuts?)

A SUBLESS rdm could handle this no problem, but I still wouldn't be able to hop on warrior unless there was another dedicated mage. In that situation, why NOT sub nin? Why NOT get the mobs dead faster while still being able to keep the group running?

[Carth]

You've clearly never parsed your damage with enspell I vs II, so I wouldn't go on about who has credibility and who doesn't lol

Math exists. You should use it sometime.

Also, "Change your job" ? You do realize that completely invalidates any argument you make for or against RDM melee in any and all capacity, right? This is precisely why Enspell IIs are valuable; any situation where you're trying for max damage on RDM (/NIN, Enspell I, casting as little as possible), you could increase your damage by simply changing your job. Enspell II is valuable when you're meleeing in a support role with /WHM or /SCH and casting is your primary role... and you can get even more benefit out of them by using, say, Enfire II while you Accession Enwater onto your party.

Change your job exists, and it exists because it is the most logical and sound answer. Almost every job can perform solos, party play, and alliance play better than RDM. It's not an invalidation, it's an answer we all ignore because don't care about it.

Even so, even if we say, our change job function is broken and we'd have to play on RDM, you'd still be wrong. Even if we were /BLU and meleeing on a jerk mob that hit us for 200 damage a pop, with triple attack and powerful AoEs, the answer is not do some hillariously bad Enhancing/Haste set which puts you under the haste cap and craps out your melee damage. You use -DT gear, Phalanx, Stoneskin, Cocoon, and outlast it. Even then, Enspell Is are better for the reasons already stated.

This is the point; the "worst case scenario" you just described is pretty much the only time you should be meleeing on RDM in the first place. If you're dual-wielding, you should be on a different job. Therefore, Enspell II are actually more useful than Enspell I, as the only time you're using Enspell I is when you're dual-wielding, and the only time you're dual-wielding on RDM is when you're second-classing yourself before you even leave your MH.

If this is how your imagination works, I'm glad I don't have one.

[ManaKing]

A little imagination goes a long way~

Like thinking that +50 Attack and Accuracy would put RDM anywhere near WAR, SAM, or DRK? Imaginary. All it would do is fix our Accuracy issues and leave us behind in damage.

P.S. Maybe the reason we have the worst Enspells is because people actually think EnSpell 2s are actually good, when anyone that actually plays a RDM knows that they aren't.

Neither tier of Enspells really even beat out the additional proc on Excalibur.

Also get back to Enspell talk and get off telling Vicious how non-sensical they are. We can all read. They've already made their case; they are somewhere close to misinformed or unintentional troll. Either way they have an overabundance of 'imagination' and I think most of us actually wanted to factor in how the game is played by people that actually bring a RDM to a fight.

I'm assuming that everyone can agree that Enspells could still really use some work.

[Vicious]

And you people wonder why the devs ignore the RDM section of the forums, lol

For the record, you only use hybrid enhancing/haste gear when the target is taking little to no damage from physical attacks, not all the time. I stated this quite clearly.

Playing word salad with my posts to paint me crazy doesn't make you any less wrong.

[sweetidealism]

I dunno what may be the right way to fix enspells, but one change I would DEFINITELY like to see is a priority change. Of course, we have already been told that will not happen, but I will post what I would like to see anyway.

Ideal priorities for added effects:

1. Weapon's added effect
2. Sambas
3. Enspells

I think allowing a weapon's added effect to take highest priority should be a no brainer. If I have put the effort into getting an amazing weapon with an amazing additional effect, then I think it is an injustice to force me to choose between that added effect and an enspell. I understand that it is impossible for both to process at once, but a simple change in priority would allow me to use my reliable enspells without the penalty of losing my weapon's occasional additional effects.

Sambas fall in second because I would rather have the haste than the magic damage. If I understand correctly, at least Enlight and Endark would provide their respective accuracy/attack buffs, no?

Of course, that still leaves Red Mage's enspells in the dust since they would NOT provide any sort of buff, AND would be overridden by sambas. Oops. Definitely a problem, there. I don't know how it should be fixed, but I sure hope it's fixed somehow.

(Maybe Red Mage could get a trait that causes enspells to give them a little bit of attack speed reduction? 10% at most. I do not think it should be innate to the spell itself, since that would make them step on Dancers' toes when they were inevitably used with Accession, but it would still make them useful in situations where haste samba was being provided yet blocked by an enspell.)

[Carth]

Also get back to Enspell talk and get off telling Vicious how non-sensical they are. We can all read. They've already made their case; they are somewhere close to misinformed or unintentional troll. Either way they have an overabundance of 'imagination' and I think most of us actually wanted to factor in how the game is played by people that actually bring a RDM to a fight.

But it's so tempting... the stupidity is too strong... must... hold back...

[ManaKing]

And you people wonder why the devs ignore the RDM section of the forums, lol

For the record, you only use hybrid enhancing/haste gear when the target is taking little to no damage from physical attacks, not all the time. I stated this quite clearly.

Playing word salad with my posts to paint me crazy doesn't make you any less wrong.

You're discounting an entire job at best and being intentionally insulting at worst. Please keep your, "You People" to yourself and argue points that make sense to argue instead of looking for a fight by bringing up illogical situations and making purposefully inflammatory statements about spell mechanics that are plain to anyone that actually plays the job you claim to know.

We don't have to have a pissing contest, but it seems like you don't want to do anything but pee on this topic. Prove me wrong by not acting like a child on the internet.


Back on topic, why are jobs that don't need accuracy or attack given enspells that give them those stats; while RDM, which clearly has a B in swords and daggers and no JAs besides Composure's outdated contribution to enhance their stats, are not given them?

Don't take Enlight from PLD, but they do have an A in swords and don't really have accuracy issues generally. DRK is riding pretty high these days and it has plenty of JAs and spells to buff them. I don't have any interest in nerfs being discussed for either jobs because taking away their spells is unwarranted. But I think RDM not having equivalent Enspells is also unwarranted. The issue is, "why shouldn't RDM get nice things as well?"

[ManaKing]

I dunno what may be the right way to fix enspells, but one change I would DEFINITELY like to see is a priority change. Of course, we have already been told that will not happen, but I will post what I would like to see anyway.

Ideal priorities for added effects:

1. Weapon's added effect
2. Sambas
3. Enspells

I think allowing a weapon's added effect to take highest priority should be a no brainer. If I have put the effort into getting an amazing weapon with an amazing additional effect, then I think it is an injustice to force me to choose between that added effect and an enspell. I understand that it is impossible for both to process at once, but a simple change in priority would allow me to use my reliable enspells without the penalty of losing my weapon's occasional additional effects.

Sambas fall in second because I would rather have the haste than the magic damage. If I understand correctly, at least Enlight and Endark would provide their respective accuracy/attack buffs, no?

Of course, that still leaves Red Mage's enspells in the dust since they would NOT provide any sort of buff, AND would be overridden by sambas. Oops. Definitely a problem, there. I don't know how it should be fixed, but I sure hope it's fixed somehow.

(Maybe Red Mage could get a trait that causes enspells to give them a little bit of attack speed reduction? 10% at most. I do not think it should be innate to the spell itself, since that would make them step on Dancers' toes when they were inevitably used with Accession, but it would still make them useful in situations where haste samba was being provided yet blocked by an enspell.)

Good name, nice post. If it worked that you could rearrange the priorities that way and you would get the Acc/Atk from Enlight/Dark while still getting Sambas, that would be pretty cool. I'm not sure if the stats would degrade that way, which I assume is the reason that they don't do it.

If RDM got any additional stats from their Enspells then this would be pretty sweet. In the case that you actually want people hitting with Enspells you just ask people not to use their Sambas. You also get Excalibur procs, which are delightful, in addition to your regular enspells or sambas. This would effectively be buff for both RDM and PLD, and most people would agree both jobs could use a buff or two.

PS thanks for restoring my faith in people on the internet. This is one of the more complete ideas I've heard on these forums in awhile.

[Demon6324236]

And you people wonder why the devs ignore the RDM section of the forums, lol

For the record, you only use hybrid enhancing/haste gear when the target is taking little to no damage from physical attacks, not all the time. I stated this quite clearly.

Playing word salad with my posts to paint me crazy doesn't make you any less wrong.

No, your still wrong. You would still never use a hybrid set of Enhancing Magic and Haste, because Haste would keep your damage higher and make your En-II damage higher even still because the faster growth rate of your potency. The changes suggested for En-IIs should be done, why? Because the way a second tier works is that its meant to be better than the first. Not that it is meant to be situational and different in a way that may or may not completely suck. Which is exactly what the problem is with En-II spells.

En-IIs not effecting more than the first hit is a DOWNGRADE not an UPGRADE which is what a second tier is. Gravity II, -40 EVA instead of -20. Phalanx II, targets other players, not only self targeting. Tier II nukes, does more damage than Tier I nukes. So why are En-IIs weaker in ANY situation, than an En-I spell is?

En-IIs simply needed to be made exactly like the original but with a change or 2 that would make it more effective. For example, damage growing with each hit, that works, just make it so that it grows with each hit, and is the same as tier I spells in every other way.

Your argument has been to justify a stupid choice on SEs part. Talking as if them being weaker in any situation is right, or a good thing. Its not acceptable, and its stupid. You know why they don't pay attention to RDM forums? Because we have more people who play RDM that have no idea how to play the job than any other job in the game. We are more reliant on a subjob than any other job in the game because we have nothing unique to ourselves, which almost every other job does. You right now are proving my point about people not understanding.

What is being asked for here is a legit upgrade to a spell that was basically a downgrade on its second tier. Additional effects on weapons are stupidly made anyways. Excalibur having a lower priority than enspells, enspells making sambas worthless, En-IIs not procing on an hit except first. There are a number of flaws with additional effects on hits. En-IIs being stupid in design is not the only one, but its one of them, and your for some reason arguing that were wrong, they are good spells that should stay as they are, because the fact 90% of the RDMs who know anything about what they are doing using En-Is instead doesn't speak for itself.

The reason RDM sucks right now, is because we get no melee sets, no Athos, no Thaumas, we get screwed. When it comes to spells, they are to weak or they are not unique. When it comes to healing or nuking, we are not good at it, healing we finally are good enough to do the job, nuking is trash. The only advantage RDM had in nuking was Fast Cast, but with elemental clarity, BLM makes RDM look like a piece of trash in magic damage. En-spells were taken over by PLD and DRK, soon they are adding a new job who uses En-spell like powers as a niche for itself. These are the current RDM problems, why has SE not fixed them? Because people like to run around and say they don't need to. Your doing that now with this thread.