Possible Haste II, can we get some Qualitative Enhancing Buffs?

[ManaKing]

Far to week, they need a significant improvement. To prevent SCH from becoming the enspell master the improvement should be a JT / JA native to RDM only. Something like Enspell damage bonus in the 2~3x range, also a large magic accuracy bonus on them as things at 100+ have some serious magic evasion.

I want another self enhancing spell like Temper to replace current enspells. This one would be more mage oriented, but still useful for melee. Gives you a pretty decent boost to M.ACC and converts your auto attacks to non-elemental spell damage. If you are mage-ing it up, you get a buff to M.ACC(duh). If you are fighting high defense mobs, you get a buff so long as it also doesn't have high -MDT. Same rules as Enspells for the most part.

• Replaces your auto attacks, so that you can stack additional affects with it.
• Subject to Double Attack (because it's your auto attack).
• Adds M.ACC based of enhancing magic skill level.
• Damage based off your attack.
• Not Subject to Defense, but is subject to resists and -MDT.
• If it were subject to MAB and MDB, then it would get Bonuses to damage from MAB on cast.
• Normal damage is non-elemental. If you cast Enspells on yourself, it changes your auto attack damage type to that element. Enspells still are present and function like they normally do.
• Affected by affinity.
• Not affected by normal crit, but possibly Magical Crit.
• Subject to Double Damage procs from Relic, Empyrean, Moonshade Earring.
• Lvl 99 Spell. RDM only. No /SCH.

[tyrantsyn]

Whomever said anything about letting them work AoE. Though I'm not against that idea. Honestly SCH as a job should of never been created, it's abilities should of been devided amongst the three current mages (White / Black / Red) with LA/DA/AW/AD going to RDM and most of the charge JA's going to WHM and BLM. But SE was stupid and ended up making RDM non-existent with a single job.

You did here

Far to week, they need a significant improvement. To prevent SCH from becoming the enspell master the improvement should be a JT / JA native to RDM only. Something like Enspell damage bonus in the 2~3x range, also a large magic accuracy bonus on them as things at 100+ have some serious magic evasion.

Seeing SCH doesn't have enspells native, You have to be implying it threw this method.

I don't see a problem with the SCH job as much as the Dev's dropping the ball and not advancing RDM as a job after the cap increase. That is the true issue. If the job had become more than the sum of or parts war/whm/blm, received exclusive native spells in both enhancing and enfeebling, and some damn native melee traits. WE all be a lot less sour about this crap.

[Mageoholic]

I don't see a problem with the SCH job as much as the Dev's dropping the ball and not advancing RDM as a job after the cap increase. That is the true issue. If the job had become more than the sum of or parts war/whm/blm, received exclusive native spells in both enhancing and enfeebling, and some damn native melee traits. WE all be a lot less sour about this crap.

The thing about that is we do have a unique trait that really no other job has. The ability to change roles on the fly we can act at any time in the role of a WAR, WHM, BLM, and we can switch between these at will. even compared to other hybrid styles RDM has the clear cut advantage of flexibility. BLU for example is married to a 1 minute spell set timer, SCH is married to its Arts timers, PUP to the chosen Puppet, DNC is entirely dependent on TP.

While I can agree we do lack specific melee traits, to be fair our enfeebles and enhancements make up for these lack of traits while enhancing spells are pretty obvious as to their counterparts many people forget that Dia is essentially our version of Attack Bonus, and Gravity our version of Accuracy Bonus.

The biggest problem facing RDM however in a group perspective, is not the fact that we have no clear cut role, but the fact that our secondary spell sets (enfeebles such as slow/para and buffs like haste/refresh) are marginal improvements at best. Essentially anything that can equip Mage gear these days and uses a job or sub job with access to enfeebles (specifically lets stick with /RDM) can enfeeble mobs nearly as well as RDM main. The T2 line of enfeebles cap to low, and the requirements to hit the cap on T1's are also to low. This means that mage armor jobs are as effective in enfeebling mobs as a RDM.

In terms of enhancing RDM isn't even in the running for honorable mention these days. Refresh II is really the only enhancing spell we have seen since 75 that has impact on the group and not available else where. However the issue again is that /RDM provides Refresh and Haste, so a job like BRD can use /RDM to cast haste and refresh, in addition to its marches and ballads. Giving more total Haste and Refresh than a RDM. (Not to mention BRD/RDM is capable of landing Slow/Para/Blind at max potency with MACC Gear and MND/INT sets). On the flip side RDM isn't getting the same from /BRD, we get 50% haste power because BRD is our sub, and only get one song (which isn't and issue at all).

SE could add as many traits and abilities to RDM as they wanted, but as long as the mechanics dictate that /RDM is as good or better, these traits will not really be justifiable. Essentially what it comes down to is kind of like how a spider web works. You can keep adding rings (stuff) to the web, you can even lose some of the rings and the web will remain intact. But if you cut a support line (the mechanics) the entire web collapses.

Enfeebling and Enhancing are what gave RDM its ability to be flexible. It is what gave RDM its ability to go from Healing support to melee support. It filled in the gaps in its own weaknesses while magnifying the strengths of our allies. Until RDM gets its support line working in its favor again, it will always be snubbed, because people don't need a job that operates at 75% of a dedicated jobs ability. Especially when you can achieve the same benefits from a BRD/RDM (and then some.)

SE can keep their placebo's what they need to do is stop making RDM live at the 75 cap. It is time that our enfeebling and enhancing magics played a larger role in our casting. It is time RDM was landing the best enfeebles, and best enhancements, and it is time that RDM main was clearly more useful than /RDM.

Like I said in another thread, you can call crap whatever you want, at the end of the day it is still crap. Until SE adjust the mechanics of enfeebling and enhancing to be more dependent on magic skill level in determining output you can pile all the crap you want on RDM, but it will still be crap.

[Mageoholic]

This is essentially the same idea I pitched to SE regarding healing magic changes, many clamored for new spells or abilities, when the best for of action was fixing the root cause of the issue. Which was healing magic skill not playing a large enough role in determining the value of healing. The issues didn't just affect RDM, they affected all jobs with native skill sets. This is why I pitched that they allow jobs with native skill to break past the old caps. Something that SE did implement, and it did address the issues with sub job healing out performing main job healing.

(to clarify when I say subs out performing, I merely mean that jobs like BRD/RDM were capable of performing the healing duties of say RDM/SCH, and then providing their main jobs abilities on top, not specifically being better at healing.)

Doing something similar with enfeebling and enhancing benefits all jobs with the native skill, and RDM more so as it is ranked the highest. Implementing an adjustment along a similar scale, will allow for the earlier levels where the old mechanics worked to remain unchanged, but allow for the gap to spread some at the higher levels, most specifically in making RDM/ better than /RDM.

By implementing a progressive rate of increase over level 75 you can push RDM's ability up, without breaking the mold entirely.

Ex calculation would be along the lines of.
(a scaling rate of 20 will be used in the example of Haste.)
P= (SkillValue-Level 75Cap)/ScalingRate+OldPotency
P= (500-256)/20+15
P= 27%
(obviously the numbers would be adjusted by someone at SE and other caps imposed but this is what I am refering to when I mean skill impacts potency)

This is exactly the same method used to increase healing magic, and it needs to be done for enfeebling and enhancing. The scaling and capping worked for 75 but we are not at 75 anymore.

[tyrantsyn]

You mention adjustment's several time's there to enfeebling and enhancing. At one point the Dev's did ask us how we'd like to see enhancing magic scale. What ever happen to that? Did they just give up on it or what?

[Mageoholic]

You mention adjustment's several time's there to enfeebling and enhancing. At one point the Dev's did ask us how we'd like to see enhancing magic scale. What ever happen to that? Did they just give up on it or what?

I do not know what happened to that, but I also do not think it was implied to address the base mechanics of all enhancing spells either. I think it was meant to focus on the current spells already impacted by enhancing magic skill (such as enspells, gain spells.) I could be wrong however, I stopped posting here because I stopped caring, but with this new SP I had to reactivate so I could argue that 1. The SP is terrible, and that 2. the root cause of the problem is not the abilities this job has, but how those abilities are counted when applied as a main vs a sub. In my honest opinion a subjob should not be applying Haste as strong as a main job, I don't get the benefits as RDM/BRD, like I do as BRD/RDM. Entirely because my songs /BRD are neutered at half skill level, and the value is represented in my buff potency.

[tyrantsyn]

No I remember, I actually welcome you back in another thread. The nerd rage was real rampant back than. It seems like most of us are all on the same page these days tho, especially over the new new SP garbage.

[Mageoholic]

No I remember, I actually welcome you back in another thread. The nerd rage was real rampant back than. It seems like most of us are all on the same page these days tho, especially over the new new SP garbage.

I missed that post but thank you, and I agree many of the sperge posters have gone which is a good thing, there are a couple still here but not like it was. I also think it is impossible to not like this new SP. At least anyone who understands the finer points of the game anyhow. It is essentially Elemental Seal, on a much longer recast. It also avoids the problem with enfeebling anyway, its not an issue with landing, it is an issue with the effect of the spells on the mobs. Paralyze not preventing TP moves for example.

(and if that means para in turn can cause players to miss WS that is fine too, we have support jobs in our groups for a reason, and the idea that I can drop a potion due to paralysis, yet somehow swing my sword multiple times in a row is kind of odd if you think about it with a realistic mind set.)

There are other issues with the game and it is impossible to really agree on all of them though. Some people think abilities and traits are what we need, and they make strong points for them, and I agree with many of them. However I also believe that piling more tools onto the mechanics that are in place is ineffective. I prioritize fixing the root cause issue, and then going from there, and here is my reasoning.

RDM received Refresh 2, to make up for refresh being granted via sub job. This is well and good and makes sense...however what was over looked was the fact that certain jobs can take advantage of this, while offering little to nothing in return.

BRD/RDM can provide more total refresh than RDM, despite being granted Refresh II.
- also provided for BRD is Cure IV, Haste, convert, and enfeebles (capped T1 with moderate land rate)
- can equip mage gear to increase Cure power, and enfeeble strength.

COR/RDM can provide more total refresh than RDM, despite being granted Refresh II.
- Also provided is MAB bonus, Enfeebles, Convert, Haste, Cure IV
- COR can equip a fair amount of MACC gear, and has a decent land rate on enfeebles, which it can then stack up to be near matches of RDM mains T2 enfeebles.

That is just 2 examples of where adding a new spell did not address the issue with /RDM being more useful than RDM Main. You can really put almost any job in front of /RDM and receive effectively more value than having a RDM main there. Simply because the mechanics dictate that /RDM is in effect as good as RDM/.

Another example of this is going to be Haste II. However the impacted jobs shrink to BRD. BRD can already solo cap magic haste. In effect giving RDM Haste II is a placebo unless it stacks with our current haste spell (not going to happen). It will have uses in solo events, but in any case where you know someone with BRD/RDM it will always outperform RDM/ using its own tools again despite RDM having Haste II.

On the flip side in either of those situations, RDM gains nothing of value from using COR or BRD as a support job. Even adding additional buffs and spells is largely redundant, because both these jobs can already do that better, and /RDM just supplements that even more, and for COR it provides some offensive boon.

That is why I feel the community should get behind me and focus our efforts on altering the mechanical functions of enfeebling and enhancing magics, by making skill level affect potency of all spells in either school. So /RDM is less appealing than RDM/.

When that issue is resolved then we can compare ourselves to the jobs around us, and determine what we might need in terms of ability adjustments, new traits, and gearing options. But in order to go forward in improving the path of RDM against other main jobs, we must first eliminate the fact that /RDM is pound for pound the most useful thing RDM has to offer the game as a whole, and that is not right. A sub job should never perform as well as its main job counterpart, let alone with the proc happy endgame system better than it.

[Calatilla]

/rdm was never gimped like other sub jobs are. Anything you get from /rdm is as strong as it would be from RDM main. Convert should have been on a longer timer, not that this would have changed much. And refresh shouldnt have remained as a 3tick, it should have been 1tick much like brd songs are.

[Ordoric]

but mages ballad is 1 tick theyneeded 1 and 2 to gain 3 per tick thats why mages ballad 2 cam out so much later unless u had a G horn