Will there be camps in the new expansion?

[Camiie]

I don't post this in favour of HNM, just to be clear on that front.. but this whole "let's make everything easy as piss" dealio isn't helping.

Show me where someone is asking for "easy as piss." People just don't want their time wasted by stupid spawn conditions.

And no, "tough" does not equal "inaccessible", "tough" doesn't have to be "exclusive", as Legion shows. It's thoroughly accessible. No camping required.

It's pretty much everything the HNM crowd are asking for except the stupid spawn timers and competition over claims. It's obvious that they WANT the inaccessibility and exclusiveness more than anything.

[Sparthos]

I don't post this in favour of HNM, just to be clear on that front.. but this whole "let's make everything easy as piss" dealio isn't helping. And no, "tough" does not equal "inaccessible", "tough" doesn't have to be "exclusive", as Legion shows. It's thoroughly accessible. No camping required.

What exactly has been "easy as piss" outiside the pile of horse glue that was Abyssea? Most of the major critics of Abyssea will concede that things got too easy but that the overall concept and satisfaction from players was and still is unmatched by any content squeezed out since Heroes finished up.

Legion is a terrible example because it has been a critical failure at drawing the endgame base to do it. Reliance on Embrava, Stuns and Perfect Defense show that "tough" for the sake of tough is a great way to drive off most of your base as individuals want to see loot comparable to their efforts. The "hardmode" that we've seen for most of the revamp period has amounted to using the same strategy everywhere if you want to win - you zerg.

If by Legion you meant the ability to have endgame content readily accessible via a teleport to a random place with HNMs then I agree that such a concept is superior to the old camping method but honestly SE has a laundrylist of ways to introduce challenge monsters without returning to things spawning every 21-24 and it'd just be lazy to do so otherwise.

[Trisscar]

Fine, other than WoW, name a "modern MMO" that's successful.

EVE online.

[Dazusu]

EVE online.

Incidentally, radically different to WoW - and has end-game that makes King Camps looks like Hello Kitty Island. Thanks for helping me make my point.

[Demon6324236]

Just because people slate games as "something made to challenge WoW" - it doesn't mean its what the developers intended. In addition to this - what's wrong with trying to match the best in the market? The truth is that WoW does it well - and in cases of most new MMO's, it does it better too.

FFXI got where it was because it was out before WoW, and is incredibly different to WoW - but now people are asking it to be made like WoW, something you think causes games to fail... makes no sense to me, but to each his own.

Basically if a game is trying to be better than WoW, or in some way looks at WoW & tries to do something similar then they are going to fail. They are most likely going to be creating content similar to WoW, but they can never capture a true experience that something else has already produced, like with movies, the original normally stands to be the best.

If games ignore all other MMOs except for what generally makes a good one, they can have a good game. Basically so long as they find what is fun for players, and what people want, they can work to create that environment within their game while maintaining a diversity to create a feel that is different, but can still give people the same kind of fun.

From what I hear The Old Republic for instance plays as a bad Star Wars version of WoW, I think if it does it is likely that Bioware looked at WoW, and tried to get to close to the same gameplay as WoW while trying to do better, it is what would ultimately cause it to fail as well. While other games like FFXI can ignore that and create their own content that brings people enjoyment and so long as it is different than what other games bring than it can still work very well, because it becomes unique, not a bad copy.

I could be completely wrong, but I wanted to further explain for you since you didn't understand. To me it looks like companies lose original thought alot and end up going into another games area and end up with a game that is very similar but not as good in the eyes of players. Examples are all through out gaming, Call of Duty has so many games but if you look around alot of shooters try the same thing, alot fail because it is deemed to be a bad Call of Duty copy, alot of Si-fi shooters get the same between them & Halo, more open shooters get the same with Battlefield. They are the big names in the genre and so when a game similar comes out, it is compared and dropped fast.

WoW is no doubt the biggest name in MMOs, so it seems to me the same happens here, we have MMOs that once they assume the same kind of content WoW does, they are deemed a copy, and thrown into the trash bin. Thats why most MMOs end up with that base kind of content however, because they look at WoW as the giant it is, and try to make success off it something similar, which doesn't work, it would be like if Star Wars had another movie with alot of the same idea, a big Empire, a Rebellion fighting said Empire, however, the Death Star is a cube, and the X-wings are Ts now. The movie would be looked at with a O.o from alot of people, and write it off as bad, for trying to do what someone already did, and pleased so many more people with its originality.



In either case to be a little more on topic. I do not think FFXI is trying to be a more "modern" MMO or anything of the sort. FFXI is simply opening up the content to a more casual audience, while trying to put out content that is just as accessible however much harder, that way it should appeal to the more "hardcore" players as well. The problem is that SE has lost touch with the word balance that they throw around so much. In this hard content there is either an enormous amount of RNG or mobs that hit much to hard for standard play. This is not necessarily what players want however, and thats why it is flawed. FFXI has become much more about accessibility for content and as such things have become faster, but the problem is that the faster things get, the faster we finish, and so the faster we end up without things to do, which leads to more complaining about things being to easy.

So it sum it up, FFXI isn't trying to be more "modern" or to copy other games, its trying to be more open, while it also struggles to recover some balance lost due to certain abilities and content that were given.

[Trisscar]

Incidentally, radically different to WoW - and has end-game that makes King Camps looks like Hello Kitty Island. Thanks for helping me make my point.

Hold it right there, champ. Before you get ahead of yourself, you should learn from someone who's actually played EVE (namely, me). Everything in EVE is open season PvP, even when your'e docked 'safely' in the space stations.

So while you're trying to take down Sleeper Battleships in W-Space (not quite end-game, but you try doing that first day) you have to be on the look out for gankers, who are free to attack you and your targets.

So EVE doesn't have that exclusitivity you are looking for to support your argument.

[Aldersyde]

Incidentally, radically different to WoW - and has end-game that makes King Camps looks like Hello Kitty Island. Thanks for helping me make my point.

Get the hell out. The toughest thing about kings camps was getting and keeping claim while fucktards tried to mess with you. Nothing was hard about the mobs post-2004. Hell, the wyrm and turtle ksnm mobs were harder than king camp mobs.

[Luvbunny]

Point I make is, this games success depends on its originality, pushing to have it become as close to WoW as possible will result in it ending up like other games that tried/were assumed to have tried the same thing.

I dont think SE need to make FFXI as WoW clone verbatim when it comes to gameplay, but they surely can appropriate the big idea of addictive, accessible and fun vision of WoW. FF has over 20 years of history with rich lores, monsters, jobs, and game mechanic to draw upon - originality is not SE weak point, they have TONS of things to draw inspirations from. I think the problem is at the company, mismanagement, and not enough funding. FFXI was different enough when it was launched, but it was also a derivative of Everquest since WoW did not even launched yet in 2003. At the very least SE was willing to evolve the game with Abyssea, let's see what will be in store with SoA, it looks promising, but then again one never know - at least not yet.

[Dazusu]

Hold it right there, champ. Before you get ahead of yourself, you should learn from someone who's actually played EVE (namely, me). Everything in EVE is open season PvP, even when your'e docked 'safely' in the space stations.

So while you're trying to take down Sleeper Battleships in W-Space (not quite end-game, but you try doing that first day) you have to be on the look out for gankers, who are free to attack you and your targets.

So EVE doesn't have that exclusitivity you are looking for to support your argument.

Read my earlier posts. I'm not looking for exclusivity, nor am I defending it in "successful" games (if it even exists?). It's a bad idea to exclude (or make people feel excluded) from a section of end-game. You got no argument here from me, but similarly, everything doesn't have to give instant gratification.

FF has over 20 years of history with rich lores, monsters, jobs, and game mechanic to draw upon - originality is not SE weak point, they have TONS of things to draw inspirations from. I think the problem is at the company, mismanagement, and not enough funding.

You got it kitty.Game needs more money and a bigger team. Ultimately, the development cycle needs speeding up.

Get the hell out. The toughest thing about kings camps was getting and keeping claim while fucktards tried to mess with you. Nothing was hard about the mobs post-2004. Hell, the wyrm and turtle ksnm mobs were harder than king camp mobs.

I don't disagree, and for the majority of people who killed them daily, this was always the case. But those who didn't stilled wiped to Fafnir with 18 people.

I'm not here posting pro-HNM camps, but I am pro-Legion and other content similar.

[saevel]

Hold it right there, champ. Before you get ahead of yourself, you should learn from someone who's actually played EVE (namely, me). Everything in EVE is open season PvP, even when your'e docked 'safely' in the space stations.

So while you're trying to take down Sleeper Battleships in W-Space (not quite end-game, but you try doing that first day) you have to be on the look out for gankers, who are free to attack you and your targets.

So EVE doesn't have that exclusitivity you are looking for to support your argument.

Lets not even begin with corporate CEO's raiding the bank accounts or assassinating each other.

EVE ... is what happens when you remove the GM's and have a standing "all is fair game" policy.

Just imagine in FFXI if one LS leader could assassinate another LS leader and force them to start over or significantly reduce their achievements.