To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

[Arcon]

My big post of what I like about Abyssea never got addressed... ; ~ ;

I hate to argue on his side, but much of what you said was opinion or make-belief.

Equality was better than at 75, but still nowhere near there.

Diversity was entirely non-existant.

Strong armor was there but it's not an entirely good thing. That was what lead to much of the post-Abyssea depression. SE realized they couldn't keep that pace up without entirely breaking the game (many of those items are already broken, especially in combination), so when they lowered their standards in item creation again, everyone was disappointed.

You were still held back by idiots and even more so by assholes than you were at 75. It was a lot easier to be a dickhead in a highly competitive and popular zone like Abyssea. You said yourself you hated competition, and that was stronger felt than ever for casuals. Hardcore people had their HNM experience to guide them, so they were more familiar with it, but casuals were getting tired and upset with being outclaimed, people unwilling to team up, people claiming mobs when they went yellow and other dickishness like that. What was not an issue to a majority of them became a primary issue to many.

Camps aren't always full, that's true, but they rarely were at 75, at least not lately. I do remember having to relocate due to a full camp every now and then, but not enough to honestly say I felt any lasting impact of it at all. If someone asked me what I hated about EXP back then, this definitely wouldn't have come up. And when Abyssea did become popular sometimes they were full even then. You still struggly to get into a Dom Ops party even today at times.

About the game being a game "again": the game was a game before. It was a different kind of game, and one I personally preferred. It went from a slow-paced high-quality game where achievements and dedication mattered to a game which provided quick and fast low-quality entertainment. Abyssea was much like Mario Party 8 that way. It was casual, entertaining, required nearly zero commitment, but when you finished it, did you feel anything? Or was it another game to throw in the bucket while starting to realize that it was the same as countless other games before while coming to the conclusion that the Wii was a shitty investment?

[Meyi]

I hate to argue on his side, but much of what you said was opinion or make-belief.

Make belief, no. Opinion perhaps. I'm willing to take that into consideration.

Equality was better than at 75, but still nowhere near there.

Diversity was entirely non-existant.

Because of the past tense used here, I'm not entirely sure what time you're arguing for; do you mean the game now, or the game right as Abyssea came out, or before Abyssea?

You were still held back by idiots and even more so by assholes than you were at 75. It was a lot easier to be a dickhead in a highly competitive and popular zone like Abyssea. You said yourself you hated competition, and that was stronger felt than ever for casuals. Hardcore people had their HNM experience to guide them, so they were more familiar with it, but casuals were getting tired and upset with being outclaimed, people unwilling to team up, people claiming mobs when they went yellow and other dickishness like that. What was not an issue to a majority of them became a primary issue to many.

I understand.

Camps aren't always full, that's true, but they rarely were at 75, at least not lately.

The camps that were full were the merit camps because the majority of players who got to 75 didn't want to level another job up to 75 and instead wanted to better the job(s) they had at max level. Camps were very full before ToAU's addition. I can see the argument of camps remaining clear like they had at 75 as many people will still choose GoV and Abyssea over oldschool parties.

I do remember having to relocate due to a full camp every now and then, but not enough to honestly say I felt any lasting impact of it at all. If someone asked me what I hated about EXP back then, this definitely wouldn't have come up. And when Abyssea did become popular sometimes they were full even then. You still struggly to get into a Dom Ops party even today at times.

True. Abyssea had its congestion times too. Especially when it first came out and we only had the three zones, then the six, and the nine without the levels to tackle harder camps. Although, back at the introduction of Visions two parties could fit at a LaTheine worm party.

I don't know about Leviathan but on Bismarck Dom OPs are dead. We very rarely have EXP party shouts and when we do they're either on worms/frogs, vultures in Misareaux, or the occasional bugard group. And even rarer yet are cruor party shouts.

About the game being a game "again": the game was a game before. It was a different kind of game, and one I personally preferred. It went from a slow-paced high-quality game where achievements and dedication mattered to a game which provided quick and fast low-quality entertainment. Abyssea was much like Mario Party 8 that way. It was casual, entertaining, required nearly zero commitment, but when you finished it, did you feel anything? Or was it another game to throw in the bucket while starting to realize that it was the same as countless other games before while coming to the conclusion that the Wii was a shitty investment?

By calling it 'a game' I meant it is easy to turn on and turn off without feeling guilty. There used to be many snags in the previous version when it came to time. Dynamis could take up to four hours (and in my group usually did), ground kings had a 3 hour window, and several other events took time to gather people (like EXP parties) and get to camp. I can recall spending many hours standing and waiting for a monster to pop (like Tiamat) to get claim, or spending many hours trying to bring it down (Jormungand took several hours our first attempt). These were several hours of a day spent on one activity. And half the time said activity was standing around waiting for the game to start (waiting for pop, waiting for party to gather).

It's really not the fights themselves I had a qualm with. It was the exhaustion of going for so long with one single event. I haven't tried end game events (excluding Abyssea) since the Rage system was put into place, so maybe it's different now. I just remember kiting Kirin for hours on end, or griding my teeth as I stood by the Chocobo Stables in Dynamis - San d'Oria for four hours as leader pulled pops to us, or doing homework, bored out of my skull while I waited for the 30 minute window to reopen. I remember wanting to leave an exp party only to be guilted back into it because someone was "close to level" or there were no other healers. I remember a lot of waiting and standing around.

But with Abyssea the waiting around has been severely reduced. If someone wants to EXP, they can usually visit one of the hot spot camps, ask if there's a spot open (which there usually is unless it's a Japanese party) and jump in for fun. They can also leave and log out when they need to. If someone wants to farm a better piece of armor (i.e. +1 or +2) they can spend a couple of hours and either obtain it, or at least make a good dent in it. Dynamis has been pushed down to two hours (and is now a lot more enjoyable) and old 75 content doesn't take nearly as long to zerg down.

I have to say I highly disagree with the opinion that this game is now unrewarding. While it's true that the anticipation of collecting that rare gear was abolished by the introduction of Abyssea, people's spirits and determination to better their equipment sets were rekindled.

I'm sorry you don't feel the same level of satisfaction as you once did.

[Arcon]

Because of the past tense used here, I'm not entirely sure what time you're arguing for; do you mean the game now, or the game right as Abyssea came out, or before Abyssea?

During Abyssea. Before that, diversity was somewhat limited, but it always depended on the event. During the "Abyssea era" there was only one event, Abyssea. There was a period of about one year where nothing else was worth doing. And that event did not have a need for any job that didn't have TH, couldn't proc and wasn't WHM.

I don't know about Leviathan but on Bismarck Dom OPs are dead. We very rarely have EXP party shouts and when we do they're either on worms/frogs, vultures in Misareaux, or the occasional bugard group. And even rarer yet are cruor party shouts.

I thought they were dead, and maybe they are indeed. I didn't do EXP in a very long time, I only recently came there to fill up on merits after I decided to redesign my SMN a bit, and there were almost two full alliances on Sweepers. But I admit that that's the only experience I have to go on, so maybe it doesn't carry as much weight. But the only reason why Abyssea EXP camps wouldn't be congested is because most people are simply done EXPing, for good.

By calling it 'a game' I meant it is easy to turn on and turn off without feeling guilty.

That's precisely what I meant too. And that's perfectly valid game design. There are games that center around nothing but casual pleasure, and that's perfectly fine. I just didn't count FFXI as one of those games. For me FFXI was a project, I wasn't just playing a bit here and there, I was building my character and it actually felt like I was growing with him. I valued him. Now I don't. I'm not sure if Abyssea is the only thing to blame for this, but many of other factors I consider to be possible reasons can also be linked back to the Abyssea era (like decreasing population or death of other events).

But with Abyssea the waiting around has been severely reduced. If someone wants to EXP, they can usually visit one of the hot spot camps, ask if there's a spot open (which there usually is unless it's a Japanese party) and jump in for fun. They can also leave and log out when they need to. If someone wants to farm a better piece of armor (i.e. +1 or +2) they can spend a couple of hours and either obtain it, or at least make a good dent in it. Dynamis has been pushed down to two hours (and is now a lot more enjoyable) and old 75 content doesn't take nearly as long to zerg down.

I don't disagree with any of that. But what about the people who finished Abyssea in a month, what should they do? I can't just go out and get another +2, because all my +2 have been finished for over a year. It was very short-lived, an almost necessary drawback of being fast-paced, which many people considered a good thing. However, fast-paced game design doesn't work very well for MMORPGs. It does make them more entertaining in the short run, but such a pace is almost impossible to sustain, which, in turn, is what lead to the aforementioned post-Abyssea depression.

I have to say I highly disagree with the opinion that this game is now unrewarding. While it's true that the anticipation of collecting that rare gear was abolished by the introduction of Abyssea, people's spirits and determination to better their equipment sets were rekindled.

Very true, but that was just as short-lived as Abyssea itself, because it was all it had to offer. Even empyrean weapons are just a small extension of that.

I'm sorry you don't feel the same level of satisfaction as you once did.

That's kind of arguing semantics now, but I do feel satisfaction. It's just of a different kind. I do things differently, I do a lot solo and I farm a lot, but it's more of a pastime. I don't look forward to the next LS Ouryu run a week from now anymore, or sea/sky god runs or Proto-Omega/Ultima. Admittedly, Legion and Neo-Einherjar have kinda rekindled that old flame, but it doesn't burn as strong as it once did. It just doesn't feel as epic as it did before.

Regardless, all I wanted to say is that Abyssea often gets sugar-coated, especially by such overly enthusiastic people like Luvbunny, who completely ignore anyone else's opinion and just spill out Abyssea-praise like a broken candy machine. It had its ups and downs. Its ups were, among others, leveling the playing field for Lv99 content, more accessible gameplay as well as easier EXP gain for the lazy bums that most of us are. Which, sadly, brings us back to this particular discussion.

[Mirage]

You might get sick of me referencing XIV, but if it weren't due to the fact that that game is virtually this game with enhanced graphics, I wouldn't be (nor would I have a frame of reference).

FF14 is not "virtually this game with enhanced graphics". Very different stat systems, formulas, gear progressions, ability and spell progression. Much fewer classes/jobs, very different crafting system. The races and token finalfantasy mobs almost the only things that make the games seem similar.

And yes, I've played FF14 for about half of the time the game's been up and I have multiple lv50s (not that that's hard to get).

[Eyeballed]

FF14 is not "virtually this game with enhanced graphics". Very different stat systems, formulas, gear progressions, ability and spell progression. Much fewer classes/jobs, very different crafting system. The races and token finalfantasy mobs almost the only things that make the games seem similar.

And yes, I've played FF14 for about half of the time the game's been up and I have multiple lv50s (not that that's hard to get).

Virtually means to imply:

- You have PIE instead of AGI; No CHR.
- Bigger stat numbers, same function.
- Only cap gear matters; Lv50 weapon-hell.
- Spells are free/auto; Abilities come with level gain.
- Crafting is "interactive", meaning you put your mats in and press Enter repeatedly.

Anyhow, the common denominator I was going after is people can attain level cap in 19hrs and start endgame shortly thereafter. Honestly, with the right resources and enough Red Bull, it's entirely possible one can start a character, get level cap, go 4/4 on AF and still have enough time to run Ifrit Hyper a few times, within the first 24 hours. In fact, you might be right - 14 might just be a bit more silly.

[Mirage]

Pie doesn't really do agi's job at all, though, so in reality, we have neither agi nor dex in the game. Pie adds damage for ranged attacks, but not because it's an inhernetly physical stat like agi is. It is probably because they wanted a system where every class gets damage from one physical stat and one magical stat.

Additionally, one class/job can't equip more than one weapon, combat skills are much more shallow, you can't parry while holding a shield, for example, because only great axes let you parry, for some unknown reason. The combo system leads to a very rotation-heavy game, which also is a contrast to FF11, at least for most of FF11s classes.

Outside of the visual style and traditional monsters, I don't think FF14 is the same as FF11 more than FF14 is the same as for example WoW.

[Eyeballed]

Additionally, one class/job can't equip more than one weapon, combat skills are much more shallow, you can't parry while holding a shield, for example, because only great axes let you parry, for some unknown reason. The combo system leads to a very rotation-heavy game, which also is a contrast to FF11, at least for most of FF11s classes.

Don't get me started on that game's combat system. Also, for some strange reason, they removed Shell and Water (nuke) from the game. ...

[Eric]

Anyhow, the common denominator I was going after is people can attain level cap in 19hrs and start endgame shortly thereafter. Honestly, with the right resources and enough Red Bull, it's entirely possible one can start a character, get level cap, go 4/4 on AF and still have enough time to run Ifrit Hyper a few times, within the first 24 hours. In fact, you might be right - 14 might just be a bit more silly.

Wow. I'm not sure of how true this is, but unless there is a good chunk of endgame content, FFXIV really sounds like it's still lacking stuff.

I played at the game's release for a week or so, and I can say that there are a lot of fundamental game mechanics that I'm not really happy with, even though there are some things that I wish FFXI had/could have.

[Eyeballed]

"Taken from the Official Forums - A wonderful post by Darshu Warshoes of Selbina that I thought deserved further exposure..."

I really don't understand what goes on inside one's mind when they completely ignore the journey for some benefit in the end. The journey is dynamic, it changes, it tells a story. The end is static, repetitive. If you switch those two up, it happens precisely what this post complains about. People do not care about enjoying a good meal everyday, because they want to live the end of their lives now, and the faster way to do it is not spending any more than 5 minutes eating their food. Fuck it if it's not healthy or enjoyable, I don't give a shit about food being enjoyable, they will say.

This affects modern society as a whole and it could not be different when that same society plays games. People are just anxious for something in the end, so anxious in fact that they do not realize how enjoyable getting there can be. The biological pace personal to each individual might affect it but I believe that it is also mostly some result of education, culture and life experiences. Society changed as a whole to this new style of "get there as fast as possible" and we can still see the disparity between city folk and country folk in that regard.

So as long as we continue to live like this, consuming frenetically, it's very unlikely that gamer's minds will change and prefer to consume little for higher gain instead of a billion mobs per second.

I personally enjoyed FFXI battles way more than any other MMO I've played, and only there could you clearly see when a party was doing it's job right and when it wasn't. Not only things could go completely wrong when someone did not know their job right, but even a party that survived could earn exp incredibly slower than an excellent party. And it never stopped the game from having even stronger boss creatures that required an even greater amount of people, and even greater skill. That's what I miss in this game, where every little thing you can do affects the game ever so slightly, but in doing it right and using all you got, in the end the difference becomes enormous.

Fighting multiple enemies is something I've always wanted after I played XI, because every other FF did that, and I thought it would be a great idea. But it doesn't seem to work on a MMO style of gameplay.

Far from wanting the game to be a hassle, I want it to be enjoyable all the way through, and not just at the end. Fighting is a big part of any Final Fantasy game, and it should be as enjoyable as it possibly can. The way it is now is not, by any standard, enjoyable. Even those who prefer it like it is do so because it gets them to what they perceive as "enjoyable" much faster. And it's even crazier when the end game right now is so limited you can be doing nothing new in a month, so why the hell rush it?

I think the analogy fast food vs high cuisine is good, but not quite perfect. It would be more like fast food vs what the Brazilian said, a decent balanced home cooked meal, that takes you time to do it, but it's way more beneficial and rewarding. It can't just reward your tastes, it needs to get you through the day, too :P And neither junk food nor 20g of rare expensive mushrooms can do that.

Square needs to show gamers it can actually be fun to level up and play, because as it is now, it will be hard to convince any one to slow down and enjoy.

[FrankReynolds]

During Abyssea. Before that, diversity was somewhat limited, but it always depended on the event. During the "Abyssea era" there was only one event, Abyssea. There was a period of about one year where nothing else was worth doing. And that event did not have a need for any job that didn't have TH, couldn't proc and wasn't WHM.

I thought that sucked at first too, because that meant I had to go BLM to everything. Then I found out that I could just level the other jobs within a few weeks. In the past you were looking at several months of leveling a job for one event an unless the job you leveled was bard, you would probably need to level a different job for the next event.

I thought they were dead, and maybe they are indeed. I didn't do EXP in a very long time, I only recently came there to fill up on merits after I decided to redesign my SMN a bit, and there were almost two full alliances on Sweepers. But I admit that that's the only experience I have to go on, so maybe it doesn't carry as much weight. But the only reason why Abyssea EXP camps wouldn't be congested is because most people are simply done EXPing, for good.

I found that when I started leveling Sam on this character, right before abyssea came out, that there were already very few people exping, and the ones who were were levelsync /PL parties at birds in the past. There was almost nothing going on in between 37-75 going on on my server. Even for a SAM. Every server is different I guess.

That's precisely what I meant too. And that's perfectly valid game design. There are games that center around nothing but casual pleasure, and that's perfectly fine. I just didn't count FFXI as one of those games. For me FFXI was a project, I wasn't just playing a bit here and there, I was building my character and it actually felt like I was growing with him. I valued him. Now I don't. I'm not sure if Abyssea is the only thing to blame for this, but many of other factors I consider to be possible reasons can also be linked back to the Abyssea era (like decreasing population or death of other events).

I see it now as leveling several jobs and gearing them has replaced leveling 1 job and gearing it. I think those other events will come back to some degree, but should they really continue to be as popular as new material? During the year or so of level cap increases, adjusting old events would have been a huge time sync for the dev fellas. They basically just let em die for a small period and then went back to work once everyone was at cap again.

I don't disagree with any of that. But what about the people who finished Abyssea in a month, what should they do? I can't just go out and get another +2, because all my +2 have been finished for over a year. It was very short-lived, an almost necessary drawback of being fast-paced, which many people considered a good thing. However, fast-paced game design doesn't work very well for MMORPGs. It does make them more entertaining in the short run, but such a pace is almost impossible to sustain, which, in turn, is what lead to the aforementioned post-Abyssea depression.

I feel like the people who finished abyssea in a month should do the same thing they did before abyssea. Keep doing it anyways, and sell the drops. The people who finished abyssea in a month were the same ones selling sky / sea / limbus / HNM drops. That is the downfall of playing far more efficiently and for longer periods than the bulk of the players. It's lonely at the top. But, they get to build relics and do all the updated post abyssea stuff, while everyone else farms / buys that stuff from them.