To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

[Eyeballed]

Honestly how they should redo VW a little, that way its worth doing. Content without a definite reward dies out because people lose the will to participate in events they could be completely wasting their time on.

Honestly, any mob that carries a drop rate of less than 100% carries the RNG factor. Let's take the silly rabbit we all know and love as Jaggedy-Eared Jack for example: Reputed to have a horrible drop-rate for a an item with a highly-situational purpose that isn't worth the pixels its printed on otherwise. Yet, people still camp(ed) it, once an hour killing 3 little rabbits around the OP in hopes to get this piece of gear. More importantly than this is the actual amount of time that can possibly lapse before he actually spawns given you're killing the PH every 5min.

The relation to our RNG woes is that this mob is easily accessible and easily defeated for very, very little chance at a generously modest reward. Yet, people do it. I do it and have known people to do it. There is no guarantee of anything - not even a stinking rabbit hide, and in this case it's almost guaranteed that you won't get the drop, ever.

But people do, for the reason I believe to be because of the extremely low drop-rate. Now, imagine if this NM was not a lottery pop and was rather a timed spawn on a CD of 10min...

Infamy? Gone. Mystery? Gone. Item Value? Gone. Feeling of achievement? Gone.

The waiting is the hardest part, but it is absolutely necessary in building up the tension for a worthwhile event to come. Does it need to be as long as it's been in the past? No, it doesn't. Does it need to be shortened to the point where the only negative side that remains is the drop-rate itself? Here you go folks, your new, single-mob, mindless gear-grind.

[FrankReynolds]

Honestly, any mob that carries a drop rate of less than 100% carries the RNG factor. Let's take the silly rabbit we all know and love as Jaggedy-Eared Jack for example: Reputed to have a horrible drop-rate for a an item with a highly-situational purpose that isn't worth the pixels its printed on otherwise. Yet, people still camp(ed) it, once an hour killing 3 little rabbits around the OP in hopes to get this piece of gear. More importantly than this is the actual amount of time that can possibly lapse before he actually spawns given you're killing the PH every 5min.

The relation to our RNG woes is that this mob is easily accessible and easily defeated for very, very little chance at a generously modest reward. Yet, people do it. I do it and have known people to do it. There is no guarantee of anything - not even a stinking rabbit hide, and in this case it's almost guaranteed that you won't get the drop, ever.

But people do, for the reason I believe to be because of the extremely low drop-rate. Now, imagine if this NM was not a lottery pop and was rather a timed spawn on a CD of 10min...

Infamy? Gone. Mystery? Gone. Item Value? Gone. Feeling of achievement? Gone.

The waiting is the hardest part, but it is absolutely necessary in building up the tension for a worthwhile event to come. Does it need to be as long as it's been in the past? No, it doesn't. Does it need to be shortened to the point where the only negative side that remains is the drop-rate itself? Here you go folks, your new, single-mob, mindless gear-grind.

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing.

The item doesn't become any less useful or desired when you remove the crappy drop / spawn conditions. It just becomes more available.

Sense of achievement should come from killing / being part of a team capable of killing said NM in a expeditiousness manner.

Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

[Luvbunny]

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing. Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

Indeed, but yet if you look at the main thread, there is another poster created a thread asking for HNM to be brought back in the next expansion.... I really fail to see what accomplishment or skill one has by being at the right place at the right time. You are just lucky - and yet EVERYONE hates the luck based mechanic of this game. So if it does not benefits you in person, it is ok to hate, that seems the mentality of the majority. Personally most of the old school contents are pretty much luck based - you either get lucky with the drops, or die die die try again.

[Eyeballed]

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing.

The item doesn't become any less useful or desired when you remove the crappy drop / spawn conditions. It just becomes more available.

Sense of achievement should come from killing / being part of a team capable of killing said NM in a expeditiousness manner.

Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

Repeatedly, incessantly, until such time? As when?

Isn't continually pounding out the same NM into oblivion in order to progress the same game I'm trying to get back, just re-packaged in single-mob form?

And to be fair, I didn't say anything about a random person happening upon the mob. I said camped, for a very specific reason.

[Meyi]

You have made it abundantly clear over the course of this thread that you have absolutely no intention of holding a constructive discussion with anyone.

My big post of what I like about Abyssea never got addressed... ; ~ ;

[Eyeballed]

I'm not going to read through 30-some pages to try and find the answer to this, so I would greatly appreciate it if your next post could list every reason why you would like to see EXP parties return and Abyssea parties be removed from the game. In exchange I will list every reason why we should not return to old EXP parties.

Sorry Meyi, though I will admit the giant wall of text was a bit off-putting.

RE Fast EXP: Considering this approach, do you believe the game should start at cap for all new characters?

RE Equality: It's my belief that, as far as the grind goes, that some jobs were more favored over others but by no means were the desire/need for the others actually diminished. What I think GoV/Abyssea have done is destroy the individuality of said jobs. For instance, I preferred having a WHM > RDM playing my Ninja. I preferred inviting a SMN > BRD in Caedarva Mire. When fighting mobs that didn't spam AoE, I'd invite a BST in a heartbeat.

RE Strong Armor: Your definition of fun; I can't argue with that.

RE Diversity: I don't really recall a time when you needed anything much other than WHM, BLM, NIN, WAR, leveled specifically for subjob purposes. Sure there's odds, but most situations don't require many more than these. As far as, "Now people are willing to level their jobs for events", I say if you enjoyed the job you'd have few qualms about watching it grow at a slower pace. I know people who intentionally de-leveled their favorite jobs just to grind with them again (Before level sync).

RE Fun: See "Strong Armor".

RE Not held back by idiots: On the occasion you would get a really good example of how not to do things, but I'd offer a fair 5% of all the parties I was in to be so terrible no one cared to carry on. Even then, with a good leader things can be fixed with /kicks and reps. I will say that the person that just suddenly says "Good bye." with no warning really sucks, especially if they were the tank or main heal, and even more so if things were going great.

RE Camps aren't always full: I can say I ran into this problem even fewer times. Very few camps/areas are so restricted in mob counts to only support one group comfortably. Beastmasters were a painful reality at times, but it was little things like this that added an extra challenge. Fight for the mob! Fight for the EXP!

RE The game's a game again: I won't disagree and say that the game didn't have some harsh facets. The game used to be set in a perpetual "Super Hard Mode". I think the answer you and I both are looking for, (at least I am), is some compensation both ways. Sure, you're getting a lot accomplished, but what does it matter exactly how much you get accomplished in a game that doesn't end? The point is that you learn to enjoy it for the majority of what it has to offer and gracefully loathe the rest. That, or you just go outside.

[FrankReynolds]

Repeatedly, incessantly, until such time? As when?

Isn't continually pounding out the same NM into oblivion in order to progress the same game I'm trying to get back, just re-packaged in single-mob form?

Somewhat, but it doesn't exclude 99% of the whole server in the way that a world spawn does. Pounding an NM into oblivion can be done faster and with a higher success rate by more skilled players. I like the method they used on Empys personally. You need x number of drops to get this item. 1 per kill is guaranteed, so you know that no matter what happens, as long as you win, you will be 1 step closer. Then they add additional luck based items, but give you the ability to increase your odds through procs and treasure hunter. And the difference is noticeable like going from 30% chance to 80% chance. Unlike VW, where procs / cells only increase a 0% drop rate to a 0.03% drop rate. Guaranteed progression makes the luck part feel far less like a kick in the groin.

Claiming HNM is completely unaffected by skill. You have no influence on claiming beyond spamming a button and hoping for the best. The random claim block timer ensures that the first guy to hit his claim macro will get rejected and player number 5-6 will be the guy who actually claims it. There is nothing you can do about the random timer other than chain a bunch of bots together.

I know for a fact that on my server, there are a few shells who do exactly that. They load up their ls, then charge ridiculous prices. If no one wants to pay, they just drop the items on the floor so that you can't have them. They will slowly kill mobs to ensure that the windows stay staggered in a way that they can always have people there to claim every worthwhile NM. People have specifically posted that they intend to do that on these very forums. There are probably a couple of level one mules sitting at Tiamat as I write this.

[B]And to be fair, I didn't say anything about a random person happening upon the mob. I said camped, for a very specific reason.

I didn't mean that he was standing there on accident. I'm just pointing out that he didn't do anything. He was just standing there. Nothing to be proud of. Claiming = pushing a button and hoping the random claim time picks you. Nothing to be proud of. Killing it? well you don't need random spawn times to have a good fight.

If they made instanced zones where people could hunt this crap, it would be fine. And I mean truly instanced. Not Group A reserves the zone and then Group B has to sit outside thumb in butt. I mean where group A and Group B are in separate zones with Separate monsters on separate timers.

If people are so bent on mobs that you can hardly ever fight, why not have something like stones, that you only get once a month and can't get more of? Then people can only do the fight 12 times a year. Then the gear stays incredibly rare, and the normal people don't get screwed by the 37 bot mule guys.

[Eyeballed]

If they made instanced zones where people could hunt this crap, it would be fine. And I mean truly instanced. Not Group A reserves the zone and then Group B has to sit outside thumb in butt. I mean where group A and Group B are in separate zones with Separate monsters on separate timers.

Truly and seriously, if you haven't already you should play XIV. Every damned event worth doing is locked in an instance, timed and laid out just as you specified.

(Not that you can, really. They're locking all servers for 2.0 Beta soon.)

[Trisscar]

Truly and seriously, if you haven't already you should play XIV. Every damned event worth doing is locked in an instance, timed and laid out just as you specified.

Why should we play FFxiv what should be available in FFxi?

[Meyi]

RE Fast EXP: Considering this approach, do you believe the game should start at cap for all new characters?

No. I enjoy the satisfaction of watching the "Level Up!" animation flash on my screen. I'm just not as eager to take 6~12 months to see the final one flash for my job, that's all. The more times it flashes, the happier I feel. Also, if we started at cap then people who wanted to level oldschool wouldn't have that option. I met a lot of my friends through leveling and partying with them, and having exp parties taken out of the game completely would destroy a huge social aspect of the game.

I still make friends in Gusgen Mines and Abyssea parties, so it's not as if these two strategies destroy that. In fact, I notice people are more willing to chat now because it's not as stressful and monsters require less focus.

RE Equality: It's my belief that, as far as the grind goes, that some jobs were more favored over others but by no means were the desire/need for the others actually diminished. What I think GoV/Abyssea have done is destroy the individuality of said jobs. For instance, I preferred having a WHM > RDM playing my Ninja. I preferred inviting a SMN > BRD in Caedarva Mire. When fighting mobs that didn't spam AoE, I'd invite a BST in a heartbeat.

You're definitely a unique individual then. Having played all of those jobs you just listed (excluding NIN past 49), I can assure you such a trend was extremely unheard of. White Mages were nice to have pre-ToAU and pre-merits (excluding King Ranperre's Tomb), but with the addition of ToAU became obsolete. I remember one colibri merit party I was in, as white Mage, commenting on how surprised they were that I could keep up. At first I was shocked because I had never heard of any party not having a White Mage, but later on upon leveling Bard realized that Red Mages were the only way to go.

Summoners were laughed at unless it was a Summoner only party, or later on Astral Flow burn. Bards were the delicious candy everyone wanted, and I had had many parties with 2 or even 3 Bards in them. Beastmaster was best to solo, and really any Beastmaster that leveled in a party usually didn't know how to actually play the job. All they knew was how to summon a jug and attack a monster.

I actually have a humoring story to share about an Optical Hat fight I did with a Beastmaster who leveled via parties, but that would stretch out this post even longer than it will be. Regardless, it's funny, and the community used to laugh at party Beastmasters just like many people today laugh at burned jobs.

RE Strong Armor: Your definition of fun; I can't argue with that.

Hm? Not quite sure about that summary. Yes, I enjoy being able to obtain strong armor by myself or with a few friends.

RE Diversity: I don't really recall a time when you needed anything much other than WHM, BLM, NIN, WAR, leveled specifically for subjob purposes. Sure there's odds, but most situations don't require many more than these. As far as, "Now people are willing to level their jobs for events", I say if you enjoyed the job you'd have few qualms about watching it grow at a slower pace. I know people who intentionally de-leveled their favorite jobs just to grind with them again (Before level sync).

Again few and far-between. I could never delevel my Black Mage just to level it up again. I'd rather make another character and level it from scratch (like I already did with Meyi ). And it's true, you didn't need different jobs back then, but now you do! At least for Voidwatch. But even aside from Voidwatch all jobs are welcome to Abyssea. Sure some jobs are desired more than others (BLM/BRD, BLU/NIN, WHM/RDM, THF, WAR) but I've never seen anyone excluded from coming just because their main job wasn't one of those desired ones.

And believe it or not, there are many wonderful job/sub combinations that people have laughed at over the years. I used to love going RDM/BST and soloing out in sky. I was very fast and efficient. Even to this day people laugh when I comment on the combination and that's how I know who was a part of the old Beastmaster community and who wasn't.

RE Fun: See "Strong Armor".

Which is true. Thank you for acknowledging that. Though if you would like to point out what you find fun/don't find fun with the previous/current issues, you're more than welcome to add that here.

All I can add on to this is FFXI of the past really felt like a job to me. End game literally sent me to a state of depression after a few days of attending it. I'm not sure if it was the negativity of players towards one another (even in shell), the backstabbing, insults, and high expectations of everyone, or the grueling boredom of slaying the same monsters day after day and not being allowed to lot anything because my leader either had a vendetta against me or someone else deserved it more.

Now I am very happy. I love the game. I love my friends. I love being able to contribute and spend as much time (or as little) as I want in game!

RE Not held back by idiots: On the occasion you would get a really good example of how not to do things, but I'd offer a fair 5% of all the parties I was in to be so terrible no one cared to carry on. Even then, with a good leader things can be fixed with /kicks and reps. I will say that the person that just suddenly says "Good bye." with no warning really sucks, especially if they were the tank or main heal, and even more so if things were going great.

Urgh. Lots of idiots in this game. I think that's the one thing keeping me from wanting to play it all day, every day. There were a lot of leaders who didn't want to lead, just wanted to gather six people together and get exp. Totally understandable since I too hate leading and refuse to do it. Do you remember the time for the trend of "disconnecting" to escape bad parties? Used to happen frequently, especially in the ToAU era.

And it's not like people really want to kick someone who sucks when it's their only tank or healer and there's none seeking around their level. It's a lose/lose situation....

RE Camps aren't always full: I can say I ran into this problem even fewer times. Very few camps/areas are so restricted in mob counts to only support one group comfortably. Beastmasters were a painful reality at times, but it was little things like this that added an extra challenge. Fight for the mob! Fight for the EXP!

No, I hate competition. It is one of my greatest displeasures in life. I will disband and leave before I camp on other people. I have morals, you know. I treat others how I would like to be treated; if I am there first, I would like access to the monsters I came for, and if they were there first, I will leave and grant them that respect. It's a game, meant to be fun, and it's not fun when I'm put in that kind of situation. So I leave!

And no, the most common camps were almost always crowded. Crowded past their capacity. If the parties were low level then the camp could usually fit two, maybe three, but if the party was close to the cap then usually one would be too much.

That's why Campsitarus was created. Unfortunately a lot of people didn't want to try out half the camps listed there because they were "too far" or "too foreign", but this blog was a blessing back in its day. Obsolete now, but still fun to look back on and smile. Hell, sometimes I still use it to find monsters I can't remember the exact location to.

RE The game's a game again: I won't disagree and say that the game didn't have some harsh facets. The game used to be set in a perpetual "Super Hard Mode". I think the answer you and I both are looking for, (at least I am), is some compensation both ways. Sure, you're getting a lot accomplished, but what does it matter exactly how much you get accomplished in a game that doesn't end? The point is that you learn to enjoy it for the majority of what it has to offer and gracefully loathe the rest. That, or you just go outside.

I like compromises. I think there could be a way to bring back oldschool leveling, but by destroying our desired way you are not asking for a compromise, but for a complete control over how exp is gained. I don't think that's fair because not everyone finds a party of six entertaining. There has to be a way to make both choices entertaining for the people who desire each.

As for wanting to accomplish things in a game that never ends, I can see your point. The reason I play is to have something to set goals in and obtain them. Something fun. I can be social with friends, work on my own goals, or sit back and enjoy some beautiful story lines. This game has a lot to complete and everyone's objective is different. Some people (like me) really want to complete one job. Get the best armor they can for that job, do their best with that job, and feel a sense of satisfaction at having one thing complete. Other people just want to complete things like storylines and partake in events. Some people feel complete by having all jobs to 99. Some people feel complete by having Relics, Mythics, and/or Empyreans. And some people never feel completed at all. It really depends on the person.

Back to EXP parties, there are some things I cannot stand about them that would need to be fixed for me to return:
1. Lack of jobs our level. This was fixed with Level Sync, kind of, but there were people even then who refused to sync down below their level.
2. Targetting easier prey. Incredibly Toughs are just...hard. There's no reason we should bust our backs slaying a hard monster when we'd be much faster (and enjoyable) fighting easier prey (Even Match-Very Tough). This is a playerbase issue and I can't think of anything for Square Enix to do to fix this at the moment. They already made it more enticing with an EXP bonus to easier monsters.
3. Camp respect. Again a playerbase issue. I think Square Enix could consider modifying some camps to make them easier to gain access to/more appealing to players.
4. Equal speed EXP of GoV/Abyssea parties. For me to choose oldschool over newschool it's going to need to be as quick. Occasionally I may want to do an oldschool party for old time's sake, but never seriously. If it's going to become a serious option it needs to step up to the plate.
5. Level Sync gear sucks. I seldomly level sync below my level because of gear problems. I don't like that all of my positive attributes are severely butchered whereas all of my negative ones remain in tact. I'd like to see a possible storage option in the form of a quest where we bring the leveled armor to a NPC to store it and can later "recall" it as we level sync.
- For example, say I wanted to wear a Shaman's Cloak for a level 56 party. I don't have the inventory to keep that laying around for "just in case I ever join a level sync party" and therefore would not have it for the party. My Goetia Coat+2 would be worthless at level 56. Therefore, for my proposal I'd like to see an NPC I could visit, trade a Shaman's Cloak to, and later "recall" that Shaman's Cloak into my Body Slot for the duration of the Level Sync party. This recall ability could require level sync status to be on to activate, I don't really care. I just don't have the inventory to lug around worthless armor I don't use at 99. But that said, I'd gladly recollect and store gear in advance to use at a later date for a synced party.
- If this is possible, it could be restricted to Level Sync parties only to prevent storage for capped BCNMs.
6. A way to deal with idiots that doesn't hinder my progression. I want some guarantee to not be affected by poor performance of other players. In Abyssea I can solo my EXP just fine. Hell, I can solo just fine outside of it too. And GoV parties are fast even with lots of gimps. But oldschool EXP parties are not fast at all with gimps. Therefore, there would need to be a way to weed out gimps without having to slow EXP or break the party. This is especially a concern when dealing with the tank and healer slots.

And lastly, don't be intimidated by my long posts. -smile- You wanted a discussion, I am having a discussion. I'm not the best at adequately expressing my thoughts in pithy sentences. I'd appreciate long responses as well so I can better understand your point of view and see where our differences lay.