Stormsurge vs Boost/Gain.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

A brilliant attempt to change topic, but no. The forums are for us to post suggestions, regardless of whether they'll actually be considered (I do find your point hilarious though, considering on multiple occasions I've pretty much stated that my opinion is something the developers will completely disregard). You post absolutely nothing that can even be considered remotely useful to molding a decent suggestion, "Don't merit it" is by far the most worthless thing you can possibly say but damn it, looks like you're going to keep on saying it.

So, back on topic. Do explain how job X having sucky merits is an argument against job Y getting an adjustment, and not an argument for job X getting an adjustment as well (I even took the names out to help remove your obvious bias).



It would be if this topic wasn't about Stormsurge, keep trying to steer away from an argument you were clearly failing from the start, I'm sure I wont notice sooner or later.

Then in that case it's done, they said No. So surely the topic should be closed? Agreed? Good!

[Sotek]

Then in that case it's done, they said No. So surely the topic should be closed? Agreed? Good!

And your attempts to derail become less and less imaginative. Fairly sure Camates exact words were:

With the above in mind, if there are any suggestions for aspects you would like to see improved, list them out and I will be happy to let the development team know.

I've listed out suggestions regarding Stormsurge. You've done absolutely nothing worthwhile. Goodnight, troll.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

And your attempts to derail become less and less imaginative. Fairly sure Camates exact words were:

I've listed out suggestions regarding Stormsurge. You've done absolutely nothing worthwhile. Goodnight, troll.

Translation: No, don't have to be a Genius really.

And your suggestion is OP and wont happen, admittedly not really rare for SCH at the moment, but nevertheless.

[Sotek]

I'd say something like "Good job explaining how its overpowered and providing constructive criticism, thus adding anything to this thread", but I'm fairly sure we've done this dance before so whatever.

[Jerbob]

While I certainly agree that the decision to improve merit abilities shouldn't involve comparisons with the "worth" of other job's merit abilities - the old "Equalise potential upwards instead of with nerfs" debates spring to mind - I think it is important to remember that the intrinsic worth of Stormsurge merits has not changed. They still provide the same bonus that they have always provided, and that bonus is still useful. It is only when comparing Stormsurge to another job's abilities - White Mage - that people are unsatisfied with Stormsurge. This is the point at which I disagree with the "demands" being made here.

It does not make sense to claim that Stormsurge is worthless "because White Mage can do it better". Someone is not going to turn down Firestorm because they can have, or already have, Boost-STR, the ease of use and practicalities of the two different lines of spells notwithstanding. The irony of the original poster's claim of a lack of balance is readily apparent when considering almost everything that SCH is capable of doing in comparison to other jobs, the recent changes to Regen being the most obvious. SCH does not have a claim to attribute-boosting effects any more than White Mage has a claim to placing stoneskin on party members - they are secondary effects. If White Mage's Boost-XXX line of spells precisely duplicated storm spells (including weather component) and then improved upon them then perhaps there would be merit to this line of discussion, but this is not the case - and dependence on a subjob to cast those storms in the first place doesn't change that.

Changing stormsurge to confer a +25 attribute bonus would be a duplication of a whole line of spells for one job and arguably a second. If the only motivation for making this change is simply that White Mage (and Red Mage) possess something that SCH does not, then that motivation is, in my opinion, not good enough.

The argument for improving Stormsurge because of a claimed weakness is an entirely different topic that should not include the "X job can do this and so I want it." undercurrent, but should be mindful of the place of SCH in the game and its relative capabilities compared to jobs that perform the same function. The fact that SCH's support abilities, storms in particular, have a direct impact on its own capabilities as a nuker or healer are unfortunate because it makes these comparisons all the more important, regardless of whether you're able or not to give these boons to others.

For example, I would argue that a hypothetical 5/5 Stormsurge merit effect of increasing storm spell effects to the equivalent of double weather (a total of a +25% increase in potency when using the correct equipment, I believe?) isn't balanced out merely by the fact that SCH can share this with other jobs. Potency increases for a hybrid job that is already teetering on the edge of being very competitive with dedicated jobs are always going to be difficult to justify, and I don't think this is any different.

Because storm spells are a support tool, I think it would be easier to justify improving the Stormsurge merit by giving it new capabilities that the SCH cannot directly take advantage of themselves - this would avoid the comparison with other jobs that "compete" with SCH in similar fields. As storms already improve magical prowess, perhaps Stormsurge could, in addition to the +7(12) attribute bonus, give a +1 percent per merit bonus to damage and accuracy for weaponskills that match the element of the storm? Perhaps not the perfect solution but it illustrates the concept of avoiding the more direct "job balance" issues that can crop up.

[tyrantsyn]

Balance. I want it now. WHM has potential to cap their Boost-Spells at +25. RDM doesn't matter because it's lame and unaccessionable... I'm stuck at +12 with Capped Merits onto Stormsurge & Augmented Relic Boots+2. Do something about it SE Devs. This is unbalanced.

There's still basically a balance issue between the gain and boost spell's as well. The DEV's themselves have pointed out several time's that aoe spell's are typically weaker than a single targeted counter parts. Yet both gain and boost at the same enhancing skills deliver the same amount of increase. Which doesn't make sense.

[Merton9999]

The argument for improving Stormsurge because of a claimed weakness is an entirely different topic that should not include the "X job can do this and so I want it."
...
Because storm spells are a support tool, I think it would be easier to justify improving the Stormsurge merit by giving it new capabilities that the SCH cannot directly take advantage of themselves - this would avoid the comparison with other jobs that "compete" with SCH in similar fields. As storms already improve magical prowess, perhaps Stormsurge could, in addition to the +7(12) attribute bonus, give a +1 percent per merit bonus to damage and accuracy for weaponskills that match the element of the storm? Perhaps not the perfect solution but it illustrates the concept of avoiding the more direct "job balance" issues that can crop up.

I agree with this 100%. Except for the OP, I think this is the spirit of most of the posts here too. I'm not bothered by the fact that WHM bonus is higher. Playing both jobs regularly, if I'm annoyed by anything it's the proximity, casting time, and all-for-one aspects of boosts, not the potency of Stormsurge.

My only problem was that the dev reasoning behind Stormsurge potency seemed poor. I don't want them to continue to think that SCH storms don't deserve an increase in utility because they currently provide two benefits. In actual practice, they don't in most cases. In other words, if Camate had said The dev team feels a stat increase half the strength of boost spells is balanced because we feel it is more likely that in many situations WHM will only be able to maintain a worthwhile enhancement half of the time., that would have made me think someone over there is actually playing the game. Implying that firestorm is providing both a STR and weather bonus to the WAR does not make me think that.

I think the spirit here is that storm spells themselves, being a defining feature of the job, have seen too little growth with the cap raise, independent of how they relate to WHM and RDM. It's an entire unique spell line that you can really get away with casting very little of. Also, that it's troubling Stormsurge has been our best merit option. Of course other jobs have bad merit options, but I see this exactly like Sotek: I'm not asking for SCH merits to be better because they are worse than WHM, I'm asking because they are bad themselves. Another job being worse doesn't justify that or make me want a boost any less. It makes me want that other job to get something better also. I'm just not inclined to use the SCH board to suggest that.

I like your final suggestion of having storms increase WS potency ... I think. While I'd like a "Geomancy" job ability to increase weather to tier two, my Geomancer side primarily wants a reason to full-time different weather on the whole party. That's actually why I initially liked Stormsurge upon introduction - I had a reason to cast storms on more than 2-3 people. A simple potency increase in the weather effect won't motivate me keeping storms on everyone. Adding damage to WSs of the matching element might increase the motivation. Similarly, what about a decent Save TP bonus to WSs of the same element?

The problem with either of these is that they may obsolete the current Stormsurge effect entirely. In order for both the current Stormsurge stat bonus and an additional WS bonus to apply you'd have to have the storm spell match both your desired stat increase and the WS element. If the WS bonus outdoes the Stormsurge stat potency, we might disregard the stat bonus altogether. Then again, maybe having both effects would be worth it for when those elements actually do line up. I just don't know my WS elements well enough to know if that would happen 50% of the time or 5%.

[Delvish]

I actually never thought of this and like the idea quite a bit. Weather spells assist magic abilities to a great extent, and I think it would be a great idea to see Weather spells increase the damage of WS/SCs, naturally based upon their skill chain element. Magic WS like Earth Crusher obviously get a boost from duststorm, but physical weapons could be better improved based upon their SC properties, and any element would do. Thus, a Light (not Transfixion) based WS for example would gain benefit from Aurorastorm, Firestorm, Windstorm, and Rainstorm equally (or have a slight preference).

[Eric]

While a completely random idea (in my opinion), this doesn't sound bad. Helices and storms--what used to be the trademark spells of a scholar--have become usable by anyone who chooses to go /SCH, therefore making us even more irrelevant(outside the scope of Embrava burns) than we already are.

Rather than to increase the stat bonuses granted by stormsurge (an idea that I find uninspired and fueled by jealousy), I think the sort of idea that Jerbob introduced is something that would make the effect of the -storm spells once again something unique to our job.

[Merton9999]

You know what would really make me happy? If a JA added to increase storm spell weather potency also gave the weather and day bonus a 100% activation rate, like obis currently do. That way I could not only free up those inventory slots, but also be able to use something else in the waist slot.

If people would cry about spending all those hours on obis, make it so you gain a trait for each element every time you trade an obi to an NPC. The trait allows the JA to affect that element.

I'd also be curious how a guaranteed weather bonus on an SC would compare to Stormsurge stat bonuses. So would DDs be better off with Aurorastorm/Voidstorm giving a guaranteed skillchain bonus than they would with +12 STR?

This would be slightly less meaningful if they add that Prism Obi people have asked for, at least for mages and the inventory benefit. Also part of me just wants a simple double weather effect JA. But then I'd miss caring about zone weather. With an additional benefit of 100% weather activation, I'd be happy enough about my inventory and that freed up waist slot to live with a +1%-2% increase per merit on weather potency rather than a full double weather effect.