Dynamis - Mad

[Arcon]

But if the freaking thing was pulled, procced, and half-killed by one guy, he's done more to deserve it than any random passerby. That still leaves mob ganker as a bigger jerk than guy who kills multiple enemies at the same time.

And this is where you're wrong. There's a reason beyond being a dick why holding multiple mobs is bad, because it's inefficient. People think holding more mobs means more loot for them, but that's garbage. Holding mobs just means in the time you're fighting a group of mobs, other people can't, even though it's not going any faster for you. So you're not just being a selfish prick who wants more currency for himself instead of others, but you're effectively reducing the overall currency gain from that zone for everyone at no gain to yourself. If a person comes and steals the mob and proceeds to kills it, it means it will repop sooner, so he's doing everyone a favor (partly even the fuckwad who was holding it).

People should kill yellow mobs, especially if they're procced because that means despite getting a proc he's wasting everyone's time holding it and slowing down repops as well. Unless you have a means of damaging two or more mobs at the same time at the same rate you'd do it to a single mob (like if you're a WAR FCing, for whatever reason), there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to hold mobs and if you're doing it you deserve whatever it is people have in store for you.

[SpankWustler]

People should kill yellow mobs, especially if they're procced because that means despite getting a proc he's wasting everyone's time holding it and slowing down repops as well. Unless you have a means of damaging two or more mobs at the same time at the same rate you'd do it to a single mob (like if you're a WAR FCing, for whatever reason), there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to hold mobs and if you're doing it you deserve whatever it is people have in store for you.

About the Fell Cleave bit...

It's vaguely similar for a Beastmaster who lets his or her pet kill proc'ed monsters while he or she focuses on using BOX STEP BOX STEP BOX STEP BOX STEP BOX STEP BOX STEP on a fresh monster. The pet can't help with procs, the Beastmaster has no reason to kill an un-proc'ed monster more quickly using the pet's assistance, and the Beastmaster isn't exactly a damage-machine when BOX STEP BOX STEP BOX STEP is needed at every opportunity; so pulling a fresh monster and letting the pet finish off the proc'ed monster is the most efficient option for that individual.

I'm not experienced enough with new Dynamis to know if Beastmasters actually work up huge back-logs doing this or not. I strongly suspect not, though, and that people of all colors and creeds just grab a bunch of monsters because they forgot about the dreadful proc affair for one glorious moment. Then they're reminded of it over dozens of BOX STEPS BOX STEPS BOX STEPS while stuff just lingers about and impacts their efficiency.

Your point of "grabbing a bunch of stuff and not killing anything that has seen the !! is dumb" definitely stands. I just think it's worth pointing out that there's a reason Beastmasters sometimes fight two things at once when the opportunity is there.

[Yinnyth]

And this is where you're wrong. There's a reason beyond being a dick why holding multiple mobs is bad, because it's inefficient.
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Unless you have a means of damaging two or more mobs at the same time at the same rate you'd do it to a single mob (like if you're a WAR FCing, for whatever reason), there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to hold mobs and if you're doing it you deserve whatever it is people have in store for you.

I'm sorry, but you're incorrect about this. Killspeed is not the only limiting factor. Under your reasoning, a brd+dd duo would be best served by having the brd pull one mob, help kill the mob until it's completely dead, and then move to pull again, but this simply is not the case. The BRD's time is better spent looking for the next "good" pull. The reason for this is because any time that the DD spends waiting for a pull is lost potential, so the BRD is best served by maintaining a constant flow of enemies for the DD so they never stop swinging.

The same thing goes for BST. The BST himself is the puller and the proccer, the pet is the DD. Any time the pet spends without a target to fight is wasted potential. Any time the pet spends waiting for a proc before finishing a mob off is wasted potential. This goes even further when you take into consideration the types of mob that BST fights (if you assume beastmen type mob). THFs, for example, waste 30 seconds of your time if you fail to proc them before they hit 50% HP. If both the BST and the pet are fighting this mob at the same time, your chances of bringing it to 50% HP before proccing double (assuming the bst and pet are evenly matched for damage).

So no, BST's efficiency is maximized by making sure the pet always has a procced mob to fight, and looking for the next target. And even if you assume the BST is limiting his own efficiency by being stupid, being a jerk doesn't solve stupid.

[Arcon]

I just think it's worth pointing out that there's a reason Beastmasters sometimes fight two things at once when the opportunity is there.

There is, and I was specifically targeting the groups of people who hold a bunch of mobs and assume they're all legally claimed. However, even that point has only partial application to BST, because by that logic they'd keep this up until they have a massive backlog that they can't possibly handle, so they'll end up wasting time and effort anyway.

The same thing goes for BST. The BST himself is the puller and the proccer, the pet is the DD.

Who says? A decent BST can deal damage comparable to their pet. Your argument depends on the assumption that pulling time after a mob is dead is wasted, but pulling time while the mob is alive is not. And it does not change the fact that after a while you'd have to move camp anyway or your pulls would be getting ridiculously long.

I admit I made a generalization, and I'm hating myself right now because I try to avoid those whenever I can. But the fact is, it's not nearly as beneficial to them as many people think it is. While killspeed is not all, it is a major factor, especially in this situation.

And even if you assume the BST is limiting his own efficiency by being stupid, being a jerk doesn't solve stupid.

It's not about being a jerk, it's about taking an available mob, which increases currency flow. If you kill it before the BST would have, overall currency gain is increased at that time. Sucks for the BST, but not as much as it is beneficial for you. And concidering the BST does it by depriving others of available mobs to increase their own efficiency, this doesn't seem an unfair action.

Also, it seems you forget the second part to my argument. One was that it's not always as beneficial to the BST as they imagine, the other that it's overall less efficient in generating currency. While it may be beneficial to the BST, if done correctly, it drags everyone else down significantly more. It is, in any case, a selfish act. To maximize their efficiency (by a smaller amount), they deprive others of their farming time. And this issue is, at its core, a moral one. You say the BST "deserves" it, because he worked on it. I say other people deserve it, because he's depriving others of their farming time/space for a net loss in efficiency. The nature of Dynamis doesn't allow for this kind of planning, you enter when you enter and everyone is alloted the same amount of time. They can't just "come back later" and get what's there, they also have to do the best they can with what they have available. And precisely because of this, the "I was here first" argument doesn't work here.

[Yinnyth]

Who says? A decent BST can deal damage comparable to their pet. Your argument depends on the assumption that pulling time after a mob is dead is wasted, but pulling time while the mob is alive is not. And it does not change the fact that after a while you'd have to move camp anyway or your pulls would be getting ridiculously long.

I must admit I don't play BST, and I don't really know anyone who plays BST, so I don't know much about their damage potential. But I certainly do know a lot about efficiency. The BST --must-- make next pull. He --must-- spend that time between each kill. Whether he leaves before or after his current mob is dead does not affect the amount of efficiency loss he sustains by not currently having something to attack. If his pet is attacking nothing while he pulls, he's doubling his damage loss during the pull phase. I'm trying to think of a way to word this more clearly.

When I said the pet is the DD, I did not mean to imply that pets always do more damage than BSTs (however, with the burden of pulling and proccing on the BST, it is quite likely that they DO outdamage the BST). I meant that the only thing the pet contributes is damage, and if it is not damaging anything, it is wasting efficiency. The BSTs duties are pulling, proccing, and dealing damage. As long as they are spending time on any one of those activities, they are not wasting any efficiency because that's something they'd have to do either way. So both BST and pet maximize their efficiency if the BST leaves to pull early so he can begin his proccing duties sooner and so the pet will immediately have a new target as soon as the old one dies.

[Arcon]

Whether he leaves before or after his current mob is dead does not affect the amount of efficiency loss he sustains by not currently having something to attack. If his pet is attacking nothing while he pulls, he's doubling his damage loss during the pull phase. I'm trying to think of a way to word this more clearly.

You don't need to, I understand what you mean, I'm just disagreeing. Case 1: BST pulls, has to run to mob and back; case 2: both pull after mob is dead, only have to run to the mob, hence shortened pull time and moved camps slightly (not as noticeable in Xarc or cities, but in dreamlands, where the camps are larger and you can roam around within them it does contribute).

And BST and pet damage are still comparable, I was including Dynamis playstyle. Otherwise any good BST would out damage their pet by a noticeable margin.