New equipment, thoughts?

[saevel]

my thinking has sorta been that if my att is high enough that adding more att wouldn't help, i'm probably going to destroy that mob anyway. so i've definitely valued att a little higher than is probably normal, if for no reason other than saving inventory and macro slots.

but i dunno, what's a good benchmark to be at for attack in ws? assuming normal mobs in the low it to high vt range? (since again, if it's weaker than that i'm not to concerned with building for it) i DID finish my str shamshir+3, combined with my AJ it's not unthinkable that i might have higher than normal or maybe even higher than needed att..

Assuming acc isn't an issue (that is a big IF) then I'd go with meat for ~600~700 attack (gear and sub dependent). If acc's an issue then go with pizza+1.

On a side note, been killing VT~IT tigers down in Kuftal and they have defense higher then expected. Definitely around 500~ish. Will be back down there to figure it out and get a new benchmark for attack.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Kirin is a Smn NM... 330-340 Defense at level 81 was Thf/Nin Mamool (Thf job and Mamool race have D rank Vit).

[saevel]

Kirin is a Smn NM... 330-340 Defense at level 81 was Thf/Nin Mamool (Thf job and Mamool race have D rank Vit).

Defense on monsters has next to nothing to do with VIT. It's based on whatever their template is defined as. Monsters don't wear gear, eat food and rarely have buffs on them (PLD / WHM / RDM notwithstanding).

Just like they don't have ridiculous attack, neither do they have ridiculous defense nor evasion.
And Kirin is not a SMN, he's a "monster", special stats and all. Player community has defined him as a SMN because he astral flows, otherwise we could just as easily of called him a BLM because he use's Stone V / Stonega IV / Quake. Or a MNK because he attacks with two hands. And so forth.

The whole point was to demonstrate how a lv 92 NM (not a regular monster) had low defense. Level 73 birds have 282 defense. Level 82 Birds had 327 defense. Notice they have +5 defense per level, their template has them at D rank defense. Thus a level 100 bird would have approx 417 defense. Now I know birds tend to be squishy, but their not ~that~ squishy that a monster of same level would have 100+ defense more then them unless SE programmed in defense bonus traits or defense scales differently past 100.

As our skill levels have changes past 76 I don't doubt that SE would of also changed how monster levels scaled. We now need to find lv 100 ~105 birds (only cause their values are very well known) to do /check testing on and figure out how it's changed.

[Greatguardian]

No, he is a SMN. Monsters all have jobs. They also have sub jobs. Please don't start that retarded Charitwo debate here because those of us who remember the fiasco are still damned tired of it.

Example: Crabs are PLD/PLD monsters. Yeah, they're allowed to do that. We aren't. It's kinda sad.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Did you really mention Greater Colibri which are Rdm/Rdm with E rank Race Vitality...

Step out of Tau please.

Nms can have multiple main/subs though, like Shadowhand in Campaign.

[saevel]

Did you really mention Greater Colibri which are Rdm/Rdm with E rank Race Vitality...

Step out of Tau please.

Nms can have multiple main/subs though, like Shadowhand in Campaign.

And if you read you'd see I was using them only for comparison because their stats are well known. I was comparing a lv 73 to a level 82 to a theoretical lv 100 bird to demonstrate defense growth. I said as much in the post, you just chose to ignore it.

Also VIT has next to nothing to do with defense. Watch

Assuming 300 defense prior to VIT and 80 VIT you get .. 340 defense.

Now super magic spell, lets increase it's VIT by 50% to 120. Yes 120 VIT, not even PLD's get that at 99 so this gotta be one hella tough monster, gotta have 500 defense right? 120/2 = +60 defense, 80/2 = +40 defense. So ... 360 defense.

WTF ... ohh noo ... not 500 ... what the hell it had like A rank VIT.

Yeah +VIT does next to nothing for defense. What you should really be looking for isn't it's VIT but it's racial defense rank. Which we happen to know is D. Studio Globi has most of these numbers if your inclined to read Japanese. The difference between A and D isn't very large. Crabs don't get their high defense from a high racial defense rank but from all the tiers of Defense Bonus they get. Racial ranks have a much greater impact on things like accuracy / evasion / attack / defense then job stats like STR / VIT / AGI / DEX.

So if your going to criticize a stat, at least get the right stat.

-=Edit=-

Here the formula for monster defense.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Defense

Monster's shouldn't be getting 500+ defense until post ~105 maybe.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I listed them as a comparison, you completely ignored everything else and tried to focus on the fact I mentioned vit.

Good try though.

EDIT: Going by the very page you linked, a 97 War/war rank D (didn't add defense bonus) defense mob has approx 420 defense... exactly what I used.

[saevel]

I listed them as a comparison, you completely ignored everything else and tried to focus on the fact I mentioned vit.

Good try though.

Here's your post,

Kirin is a Smn NM... 330-340 Defense at level 81 was Thf/Nin Mamool (Thf job and Mamool race have D rank Vit).

All I see there is you negating my mention of a 92 NM (Manitcore base) while listing it as a SMN and the Mamools.

What you didn't realize is that WAR/WAR is ... D rank Vit so those Mamools have the same or slightly higher VIT then a SMN. And Vit does next to nothing for Defense. You keep mentioning Vit like it somehow explains high / low defense, which it doesn't as I've demonstrated with my 80 (low VIT) to 120 (high VIT).

And then I corrected you by showing that it's the monsters racial defense rating that has the greatest effect.

Mob defense and evasion (2006-04-12)

Mob defense: [f(level,family defense rank) + 8 + (VIT/2) + job traits] * family multiplier
Mob evasion: f(level,main job evasion skill rank) + (AGI/2) + job traits

Function f:

Rank Level 1-50 Level 51+
A 6+[(Lv-1)*3.0] 153+[(Lv-50)*5.0]?
B 5+[(Lv-1)*2.9] 147+[(Lv-50)*4.9]?
C 5+[(Lv-1)*2.8] 142+[(Lv-50)*4.8]
D 4+[(Lv-1)*2.7] 136+[(Lv-50)*4.7]?
E 4+[(Lv-1)*2.5] 126+[(Lv-50)*4.5]

Verifying these formulas, edited previous version to reflect current state of verification

Levels below 1 use the Level 1 calculation.
Most mob families have a defense rank of C.
Crawlers have a defense rank of E.
Roc have a defense rank of B.

Most mob families have a defense multiplier of 1.0.
Bugards, Buffalo and Antlions have a multiplier of ~1.2 (1 + 51/256, to be exact)

As you can see the family defense rank outweighs the job VIT rank pretty handily. A Roc SMN would have more defense then a Crawler PLD (before cocoon).

Most monsters are racial defense C, so a level 100 monster with racial defense C would have a base defense of.

142+[(Lv-50)*4.8]

Then +8 + VIT/2 + job trait.

Or 390, then add VIT/2.

Here's a good table to use for figuring out VIT.

monster VIT = fVITRace(77, C) + fVITMJob(77, D) + fVITSJob(38, D)
= [4+(Lv-1)*0.40] + 3+(Lv-1)*0.35 + 3+(Lv-1)*0.35
= [4+(77-1)*0.40] + 3+(77-1)*0.35 + 3+(38-1)*0.35
= 34 + 29 + 15 = 78 VIT

the fVITRace, fVITMJob, fVITSJob use the same formula. The formula is as follow for each stat rank :

A 5+(Lv-1)*0.50
B 4+(Lv-1)*0.45
C 4+(Lv-1)*0.40
D 3+(Lv-1)*0.35
E 3+(Lv-1)*0.30
F 2+(Lv-1)*0.25
G 2+(Lv-1)*0.20

Lv 100 Rank D monster should have (D+D+D) or 111 VIT, +55 defense.

So 445 defense or so. Hence I recommended using ~450 as the minimum attack to be thinking about (For EM~T monster at 99).

Finding a tiger that was VT to a level 95 (102 most likely) that had ~500 defense made me pause. I shouldn't be seeing that high a defense until 110 at least.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I mentioned both... not sure what you're trying to get at other than to nitpick.

Already mentioned in last post, 97 War/War D rank vit came up to ~420 defense, and that's what I used as lowest defense number.

The 560 assumed a high defense NM level 107ish yes.

[saevel]

I mentioned both... not sure what you're trying to get at other than to nitpick.

Already mentioned in last post, 97 War/War D rank vit came up to ~420 defense, and that's what I used as lowest defense number.

The 560 assumed a high defense NM level 107ish yes.

Very few of those, NM's tend to follow family racial stats, unless SE decides to play Rule 0 card.

And you had no idea about the monster defense rank formula, or you'd of quoted Kirin's manticore racial defense rank instead of the must less significant SMN VIT rank.

Now your going to back calculated out the required level / stats for that ridiculous 560 you used.

The real reason you used it was to deliberately put the RDM under 1.0 cRatio while putting the BLU/WAR over that. Under 1.0 your damage will quickly turn to sh!t, it's a very bad place to be at. It was an invented scenario to try to say "RDM is a terrible DD" and I saw right through it.

Almost universally monsters will have Rank C defense and Rank D VIT, this includes NMs. What SE will do is give the NM defense bonus ranks or add a few levels to make it harder. Or just add some form of -DT. Their lazy that way.