Cure Formula Changes

[Economizer]

I'm not exactly sure what you are thinking, but a few thoughts.

I read your previous numbers post that you linked back when you posted it, and reread it recently (to be completely honest, I couldn't really make sense of the second half whenever you talked about "scaling" - that is to say, I didn't know where you were applying the numbers.

I linked all my sources that I've been using previously, but I'll link them again more clearly, you seem to have a better head for numbers then I do, so the tools would probably help more.

• Furen's FFXI Cure Calculator
• Furen's FFXI Cure Guide
• FFXI Calculator

FFXI Calculator is better for getting the true caps on spells, but does not show some of the finer workings that Furen's Cure Calculator does (plus Furen's is online), and you can see all Furen's notes on his guide, which explain cures quite well. I can only assume you've probably used/read one of these before, if not all of them, but I want to be sure we have the same resources.

That implies a hard power cap of 1240. Adding that to my spreadsheet for personal reference.

I checked the formula that FFXI Calculator had on this, and while Cure V does hit its hard cap at a power of 1240, the lower tier cures do not cap at any level, at least according to the calculator. I only remember people confirming the top cure amounts for Cure V and Cure VI on the FFXI Calculator forums, so we'd either have to be suspicious of the numbers given for Cures I-IV, or test it.

The easiest way to test this would be to pop a Primevel Brew and start curing people with lower tier cures, or possibly stack enough stats to get over the 1240 power amount, which again, only really seems possible in Abyssea. If anyone with access to the test server is reading this, perhaps you could test maximum possible cure amounts with a Primeval Brew for us?

Because of the way they've built it (now that I have a pretty complete picture of things), I can see how they might be hesitant to change it. For example, I don't know why the specific value of 1240 is used as a max power, but if it's hardcoded into various places, or there's other code that depends on that particular value, it could be very troublesome to change (and easily break stuff if they don't go through everything very carefully).

Blue Mage spells use the same formulas that White Mage spells do, with a bit added on or taken off. Changes to ours would probably changes theirs. Then mob power calculations come in - if mobs can heal more they would be more difficult, and so on. Or at least that's two reasons they might not want to change the formula.

At this point I'm doing some rethinking of my proposed revisions based on these limitations (ie: min cured, 3 defined caps, max of 1240 power).

When you do get a proposal to post, be sure to post something like an average cure amount. For example, I've been using the same stat block over and over for my displayed numbers when making points or answering questions so far.

[Motenten]

I'm not exactly sure what you are thinking, but a few thoughts.

I read your previous numbers post that you linked back when you posted it, and reread it recently (to be completely honest, I couldn't really make sense of the second half whenever you talked about "scaling" - that is to say, I didn't know where you were applying the numbers.

I linked all my sources that I've been using previously, but I'll link them again more clearly, you seem to have a better head for numbers then I do, so the tools would probably help more.

• Furen's FFXI Cure Calculator
• Furen's FFXI Cure Guide
• FFXI Calculator

FFXI Calculator is better for getting the true caps on spells, but does not show some of the finer workings that Furen's Cure Calculator does (plus Furen's is online), and you can see all Furen's notes on his guide, which explain cures quite well. I can only assume you've probably used/read one of these before, if not all of them, but I want to be sure we have the same resources.

Furen's calculator doesn't include a true hard cap. I likewise was not aware of it until you linked to the BG thread on Cure 6 testing.

I actually used Furen's javascript code to verify the formulas I derived based on what's on the wiki.

Furen's formulas are the same that I'm using, with a couple modifications. For example, he uses:

(Power / 2) / rate

Where rate is what I call 'scale', except that I don't use Power/2, so my values would be the equivalent of

Power / (2*rate) == Power / scale

Then obviously my 'scale' values are twice his 'rate' values. His main page also indicates that only even values of Power cause a change in cure, and may be why he uses Power/2, but I don't see an indication that Power itself is divided and floored. There's tons of values where changing Power by 1 point won't change the amount cured, even in my setup.

I also simplified his [3 * Mnd + Vit + 3 * (Skill/5)] to be [3 * (Mnd + Skill/5) + Vit].


I checked the release notes of the FFXICalculator and noted the cap you mentioned. However with no source code available I can't really make any decisions based on that. Luckily the BG thread you mentioned has plenty of data to allow me to see where he got the values from, and I've incorporated them into my spreadsheet.

I checked the formula that FFXI Calculator had on this, and while Cure V does hit its hard cap at a power of 1240, the lower tier cures do not cap at any level, at least according to the calculator. I only remember people confirming the top cure amounts for Cure V and Cure VI on the FFXI Calculator forums, so we'd either have to be suspicious of the numbers given for Cures I-IV, or test it.

The easiest way to test this would be to pop a Primevel Brew and start curing people with lower tier cures, or possibly stack enough stats to get over the 1240 power amount, which again, only really seems possible in Abyssea. If anyone with access to the test server is reading this, perhaps you could test maximum possible cure amounts with a Primeval Brew for us?

The release notes on FFXICalculator also only list fixes to Cure V/VI, so it's not surprising it doesn't hard cap 1-4. But yes, would be nice if someone could brew on the test server to verify the max cured amounts for each.

Blue Mage spells use the same formulas that White Mage spells do, with a bit added on or taken off. Changes to ours would probably changes theirs. Then mob power calculations come in - if mobs can heal more they would be more difficult, and so on. Or at least that's two reasons they might not want to change the formula.

When you do get a proposal to post, be sure to post something like an average cure amount. For example, I've been using the same stat block over and over for my displayed numbers when making points or answering questions so far.

Fiddling with numbers while keeping these limitations in mind. So far, kind of annoying, as there's a lot of variability to account for (amount cured at various levels, progressive spell efficiency at different power levels, etc).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The release notes on FFXICalculator also only list fixes to Cure V/VI, so it's not surprising it doesn't hard cap 1-4. But yes, would be nice if someone could brew on the test server to verify the max cured amounts for each.

I tried it out, Naked:

Tier -- Amount
I -- 40
II -- 105
III -- 220
IV -- 450
V -- 810
VI -- 1140

If you want me to try with Cure Potency and such, just say.

[Motenten]

I tried it out, Naked:

Tier -- Amount
I -- 40
II -- 105
III -- 220
IV -- 450
V -- 810
VI -- 1140

If you want me to try with Cure Potency and such, just say.

Thanks. Those all exactly match the hard cap predictions, so we can be confident in the formula and limits. Cure potency test won't be needed.

[Economizer]

I'd like to state clearly that this is not the place to discuss who should get Cure V. This is a thread solely for the talk of the cure formula, and how it should be changed, and in the case it is, we're going to analyze it. Thanks to everyone who has been keeping on topic.

Extra big thanks to Daniel_Hatcher for getting us these numbers:

Tier -- Amount
I -- 40
II -- 105
III -- 220
IV -- 450
V -- 810
VI -- 1140

I've went and posted on the FFXICalc forums so the author of that tool can update it as well, we're going to need all the numbers as accurate as possible.

I suspect that Cure VI may cap at 1240 power as well, and may just have the formula be more based on the power calculation (such as PW-100) at higher numbers. This will be hard to verify compared to some what we've verified so far I think.

Thanks. Those all exactly match the hard cap predictions, so we can be confident in the formula and limits. Cure potency test won't be needed.

Good call on the hard cap of 1240 PW.

And yeah, we already know how cure potency affects cure numbers, so we won't need any more testing in that area. If anything, we could use some testing on the Blue Mage cures to see if they suffer the same hard caps, but I don't think this is really neccisary, we have a lot of evidence that they will in fact be affected by the same hard caps as the White Mage cure spells.