Thief's knife upgrade

[Karbuncle]

Maybe I'm just spoiled from only doing stuff with friends recently, but my brain just refuses to believe that anyone so misinformed would be allowed to lead anything by anyone else. My heart, however, pumps the darkest ichor of pessimism and tells me that such a thing has happened and will happen again. I am unsure which vital organ to believe, and my stomach refuses to break the tie because I had mixed vegetables for dinner.

Expounding on how much worse Thief's Knife has gotten compared to it's effect on damage at level 75, soon there will be Assassin's Armlets +2 with Treasure Hunter +2, unless a last-minute change is made. More Treasure Hunter in a slot that is infinitely less awful. How, again, is Thief's Knife okay?

I don't know how exactly to answer this, Because I'm not sure the question or if its even a question at me >_> but even Asslets getting +2 TH Still means We'll get a base of +7 and be forced to Deepthroat that level 70 Abomination.

But yah... There leader out there that stupid. I've met a few. Not for long mind you, as when I'm being lead by a moron i generally seek out a new shell as fast as possible.

[Lokithor]

Here is a summary of on-topic points from the other thread.

1. The current TH's knife forces Thf to use a weapon that has fallen way behind damage consistent with the higher levels.
2. Swapping out the knife to use an appropriate damage weapon after applying TH to a mob negatively affects damage as you lose TP. No other job is forced to gimp their damage in this way.
3. Thf's do NOT want another weapon with TH on it as this would force Thfs to use both weapons, making the matter even worse (with the possible exception of a new weapon whose TH only works when Thf's knife is not equipped).
4. Options to fix this include:
   1. Raising the damage level of the existing knife by some means (magian, etc).
   2. Transferring the TH effect to a swappable piece of gear by giving that new piece of gear a latent effect where its TH is only active when the TH's knife is not equipped.
   3. Removing the loss of TP when you swap any weapon in your off hand. This is my preference as it would also add lots of interesting options for dual wielders.

So, if you have anything else to add, go for it. If not, gtfo this thread.

[Morgantisthedon]

I wanted to respond to the above statement
No other job is forced to gimp their damage in this way
Nobody is forcing a thf to wear this knife. We do so to help bring our TH up on a mob. Sure it can be a pain but we do it to help for the better ment of the group. It doesnt have to be wore it is decided to be worn. This is key to understanding it we wear it for a effect.
I listed some examples of jobs and how they get gimped on tp (for weapons basicaly and when you would)

Abby
Blue procs or Red procs- this affects various jobs from nin to war to many others. But yet we do it out necissaty if something is wanted. Is it needed ? Not realy more so desired. I have yet to hear anyone complain I lost such such tp when they where asked swap to a wpn for helping this.

VW
Same as abby we do the above because its for the betterment of the group when a cetain wpn is needed to proc a hq or low quality proc.

Pulling. Sometimes it better to swap on the ole evasion or put on the pdt wpn. When it is needed for the situation. Many time I have just used those and swapped back @ camp.

Mnk chi blast building. rarely used but I have done it and lost tp when they said stay off the mob and chi blast so i tossed on a mnd + staff/ Or when I pulled to many and I need to do cata to some mobs. Anther thing is i will swap my wpn for chakra build.

Blu - various uses when we choose the option of a elemental staff swap for more damage to buff our spells from using my swords or swapping to a pdt build. Or when I need swap my fast cast sword on when I keep getting interupted.

Sch i have been dding and swapped to diffrent ele staff or my sublimination staff many times when the need arises

Bst when my pet needed healing. I thought not for a second to toss on my reward axes to feed my pet.

Ranger. If i had my staff on and a mob came close to me i had the option to run or toss on some daggers or sword to dispatch or kite. Or I pulled to much hate and had swap evasion daggers on to live.

Pld I have swapped my main wpns along with other gear to give me a boost in various stats, enimity ,vitality ,pdt etc.


Smn- to get the effect I want from diffrent avatars I choose. I will swap mid fight if needed for that avatar even if dding sometimes.

There is tons more options out there of what would benefit you swapping your weapon out for the desired effect not just thf knife.
This is the idea of swapping why it is done for wpns. You want a effect from a wpn be it anything. From plus enimity - enimity , stat boost, fast cast, reward etc etc I belive this same concept is used for thf knife.
Could it use a upgrade of course. Dose it need one not realy. I did purpose various other ways of doing it also if that was route choosen
Dont get me wrong I love thf. I just know what the benfits of swapping wpns are. Some good some bad but we get desired results from the wpn we use it why we do. I wish they would upgrade alot stuff dont get me wrong. If SE where to allow alone the thf knife to be updated they would have to allow each job w/ mutiple wpns and gear to do so. The reason is people are passionate about thief and it erks them to do so. Alot jobs swap weapons when the need arises is all. Trust me I feel same way but I know why and understand the dynamics of the job and how and why it is done same with all the above reasons we lose tp .

Would upgrading the th knife would be awsome ... definatly and I would welcome it open arms in any form.
Sadly it isnt 100% needed. Its surves it purpose for when I put it on. Thats reason why we wear it or not wear it.

[Karbuncle]

Well, one thing, If you ever want to go to a LS Event on THF, You are going to be "forced' to wear a Thief's Knife, or forced to chose a different job. With most Linkshells anyway.

Unless your LS leader is particularly understanding/Intelligent.

Its an unfortunate truth for many Thieves out there. We have a choice, for sure, but its between Listening, Or not playing THF in group settings. Not very fun of a choice.

[Lokithor]

Maybe I should have said something "intelligent" to add. Someone who uses smn and sch melee weapons swaps as an equivalent example would clearly not meet that requirement. My apologies to everyone for my omission.

[Insaniac]

The problem with all of his examples is that the trade off is battle related. It's for the purpose of either doing more damage in that situation or making a fight go more smoothly. I use an evasion kila sometimes and I have no problem with it even though it lowers my damage. If a blu did more total damage by not swapping to elemental staves for w/e reason then that BLU would not swap to those staves. I would have no problem on PLD switching between and ochain and aegis mid battle and losing TP if I needed to because the fight called for it. The difference is clear. Thief's Knife gives a miniscule non battle related boost for huge cuts in DPS and people expect you to use it because they believe a 1% increase in drops is better than killing 10% more mobs over time.

[Arcon]

I wanted to respond to the above statement
No other job is forced to gimp their damage in this way
Nobody is forcing a thf to wear this knife. We do so to help bring our TH up on a mob. Sure it can be a pain but we do it to help for the better ment of the group. It doesnt have to be wore it is decided to be worn. This is key to understanding it we wear it for a effect.
I listed some examples of jobs and how they get gimped on tp (for weapons basicaly and when you would)

All those example are for NM fights. But that's not what this is about. I don't think anyone here will complain that on NMs you lose some TP as a one time thing. It's a problem if you are farming. Dynamis is really the best example, actually even inside Abyssea when you're farming for NM triggers. You have mobs that die in seconds, but farming is the one sole objective, so you want maximum TH. Swapping out weapons all the time would be a severe overall damage loss. Just using a Thief's Knife fulltime would also be a damage loss, though not quite as high, but still to a degree that using the knife itself is a bad idea. Hence, it defeats its own purpose with the low damage rating it has.

[Zirael]

Maybe I'm just spoiled from only doing stuff with friends recently, but my brain just refuses to believe that anyone so misinformed would be allowed to lead anything by anyone else. My heart, however, pumps the darkest ichor of pessimism and tells me that such a thing has happened and will happen again. I am unsure which vital organ to believe, and my stomach refuses to break the tie because I had mixed vegetables for dinner.

Expounding on how much worse Thief's Knife has gotten compared to it's effect on damage at level 75, soon there will be Assassin's Armlets +2 with Treasure Hunter +2, unless a last-minute change is made. More Treasure Hunter in a slot that is infinitely less awful. How, again, is Thief's Knife okay?

Absolute Virtue/Pandemonium Warden/Kirin/whatever zergfests take 90s max. I'd very much rather wield Mandau/Twash and ride aftermath in those kinds of fights. It's like asking your Ukonsavara WAR to open fights with 300TP Full Break - it's helpful for the rest of the alliance after all. And I bet you'd get gtfo slammed right into your face tho. And whilst WARs and any other DDs are allowed to use their strongest weapons, when you join a fight which takes several milion gil or several days to get prepared, I find it very much reasonable from the pop holder to expect from a THF to use their strongest TH effect right from the start. There is no such thing as building TH on Absolute Virtue or anything in Dynamis etc. In abyssea and voidwatch Thief Knife might not be an issue (because TH+1 doesn't matter) but anywhere else it still drags us to the very bottom of parse barrel.

[Greatguardian]

I guess I'm one of those rare and understanding leaders, then. Screw Thief's Knife.

[Arcon]

I guess I'm one of those rare and understanding leaders, then. Screw Thief's Knife.

You make it sound sarcastic, but the "rare and understanding" part is actually true. Not many people know how useless it actually is.