Why Cant Final fantasy 11 get the same treatment?

[CapriciousOne]

There is the key "the best you can" has a reasonable limit. Using your car example, if your car is 8 years old and has over 200k miles on it, the cost of maintaining said car is going to go up just like the cost of maintaining an older game engine to keep players happy goes up.

Even with that same car analogy you are missing an important part, the maintenance cost goes up mainly because the owner is trying to find original pieces of the car that are no longer made and supported as well instead of looking for parts that are similar and compatible that can accomplish the same task. This is much what SE has been tryinig to do to this game the content and other content. They have been trying to keep this game in a model that has long been outdated and isnt really supported by the player base instead of evolving it to meet teh current demands and needs of the community today and not what it used to be 8 years ago.

Just like cars where you can completely replace the engine, transmission, and other internal parts to more current versions, the same can be done with FFXI especially for those that play FFXI on the PS3 like myself. Sure the game was designed with and for PS2 in mind but that isnt to say that there couldnt be PS3 optimizations made for those players like myself that are exclusive to PS3 or 360.

This in turn will give the older ps2 users if any still exist the option of just stop being cheap and upgrade to a ps3 for the new content and optimizations or just miss out and stay on PS2 if they so choose but the point is it would be AN OPTION that YOU not SE decides.

[Zagen]

Just like cars where you can completely replace the engine, transmission, and other internal parts to more current versions, the same can be done with FFXI especially for those that play FFXI on the PS3 like myself. Sure the game was designed with and for PS2 in mind but that isnt to say that there couldnt be PS3 optimizations made for those players like myself that are exclusive to PS3 or 360.

If FFXI was build for PC (like WoW, and Eve) upgrades and changes would be much more manageable the fact that the game was built for PS2 and not for PC then ported to PS2 is the biggest reason it isn't a financially feasible idea. They'd need to rebuild the whole damn game to give it a proper "limitless" lifespan. Assuming SE didn't learn from this mistake and just threw another wrapper around the PS3 code to make FFXIV PC version then it too will suffer the same fate down the line.

[CapriciousOne]

1. When a new player looks into an MMO that has over 8 years of content and 500k players they see 8 years of content to catch up on to be on par with those players and the odds of newer players joining slim for the same reason.


2. When a new player sees an MMO with 1-2 years of age and what 50k players? They see something more attainable in the 14 compared to 11.


The core engine, the part that actually makes the game work.

1. Well let me say I have been playing this game for 2 going on 3 years now and this is DEFINITELY NOT what i thought of or even considered when i saw this game. I have played Final Fantasy from VII to XII and the last thing I thought about was the idiot box playerbase. When I saw that this game has been out for over 8 years (I still remember it being released) all I saw was a stable online platform with years of content to keep me busy. Even if I never complete everything there wouldn't be and even till this day there still isnt a shortage of content to complete. If i dont complete it is a result of me choosing to not be bothered with it because I dont feel ends justify the means.

2. When I see a game of this stature I think new and mostly inexperienced in reference to the playerbase but I also see them as more adventurous and not set in their ways about how a damn job should be played and when and all that bs I see on here. I see it as more people who are willing to allow any and everyone to enjoy the game any way they damn well please instead of a bunch of pompous know-it-all jackasses that dont have the intelligence enough to figure how to make any set up at least modestly useful even if it is better served by another combination of jobs or gear. What I also see is an uncertain future where as soon as I get good and going and into the game could have the proverbial rug pulled from up under me before it even really gets started. Sure this can happen in any game at any time but the first few years of a MMO usually will make or break its success.

In all though while I dont believe thaot investing the majority of your resources into something uncertain especially when you have a cash cow that you can count on is smart, I do believe that they should invest something into FFXIV but not the amount they are doing. Oh and btw where exactly do you think most of that money to revamp FFXIV is coming from ? it is funded by us on FFXI i am sure and other new releases that arent online games. One of the reasons we are having some of the problems we have with FFXI is because SE is clearly under resourced to manage 2 MMO when they could barely manage this one alone.

[CapriciousOne]

If FFXI was build for PC (like WoW, and Eve) upgrades and changes would be much more manageable the fact that the game was built for PS2 and not for PC then ported to PS2 is the biggest reason it isn't a financially feasible idea. They'd need to rebuild the whole damn game to give it a proper "limitless" lifespan. Assuming SE didn't learn from this mistake and just threw another wrapper around the PS3 code to make FFXIV PC version then it too will suffer the same fate down the line.

Again missing another point that most consoles are, in there own right, PCs as well of sorts. For isntance 360 and PS3 was pretty much built using the same PowerPC core. The only real difference is the console specific optimizations and refinements made by the respective companies to meet their vision of their consoles. To me that is like saying you would have to rebuild old DOS based games just to be able to play them on Windows PC. Or even better that is like saying SE completey remakes FFXI every time they release and expansion or update. Some minor things may need reconfiguring but complete rebuild from ground up is bs.

In this day and age of emulation it is entirely possible to port and add to old games to be able to utilize more current and powerful technology without as much redesign as you may think. Essentially when most programs of any kind install, one of the first thing it is designed to do is detect what it is running on which is how and why u cant run Mac apps on PC and vice versa without some middleware involved. This same technique could be used for more next gen Consoles where it would detect the user is using a PS3 or 360 and add console specific drivers, config, etc. The most they would have to do is make the core of FFXI aware of these new extensions by defining them, specify them where they are located and which points they are needed by the core and on what detected system they are utilized.
It is virtually no different than playing my PS1 games on my pc using PSXE or other emulators and with SE being SCEA authorized publisher as well as for Microsoft they have access to all the code necessary to make this happen.

[Zagen]

Again missing another point that most consoles are, in there own right, PCs as well of sorts. For isntance 360 and PS3 was pretty much built using the same PowerPC core. The only real difference is the console specific optimizations and refinements made by the respective companies to meet their vision of their consoles. To me that is like saying you would have to rebuild old DOS based games just to be able to play them on Windows PC. Or even better that is like saying SE completey remakes FFXI every time they release and expansion or update. Some minor things may need reconfiguring but complete rebuild from ground up is bs.

While consoles are built with PC hardware or hardware derived from PC counter parts developing for PC and developing exclusively for a console are not the same thing.

My PC built in 2001 originally has been upgraded with the latest hardware it was compatible with to be able to play and run Sims 3, before the hardware upgrades it wouldn't even run Sims 2 correctly. This option for upgrading is non existent in the console world.

The PS2 hasn't gotten any hardware upgrades allowing it to become more powerful than it was at launch. All consoles are the same, though 360 and PS3 do have the ability to upgrade the firmware interacting with them, though that's still not the same thing.

By the way you do have to rebuild DOS based games to run on current Windows OS unless you build a DOS emulator to run said game.

I've worked on PS2, Wii, 360, and PS3 console development. The biggest common factor on every game I worked on was getting it running on a PC first because the idea of a PC version was on the table as a reality or possibility. The games were then toned down and then ported over to the given console.

For whatever reason this wasn't how SE did it or maybe they've since lost the initial PC base or built around the PS2 code base instead. That's most likely why the PC version is a Direct X wrapper and not a true PC version.

In this day and age of emulation it is entirely possible to port and add to old games to be able to utilize more current and powerful technology without as much redesign as you may think. Essentially when most programs of any kind install, one of the first thing it is designed to do is detect what it is running on which is how and why u cant run Mac apps on PC and vice versa without some middleware involved. This same technique could be used for more next gen Consoles where it would detect the user is using a PS3 or 360 and add console specific drivers, config, etc. The most they would have to do is make the core of FFXI aware of these new extensions by defining them, specify them where they are located and which points they are needed by the core and on what detected system they are utilized.
It is virtually no different than playing my PS1 games on my pc using PSXE or other emulators and with SE being SCEA authorized publisher as well as for Microsoft they have access to all the code necessary to make this happen.

When you emulate a PS1 game on your PC that likely has specs closer to a PS3 does the PS1 game look and run like a PS3 game or a PS1 game?

While a program or game designed for a PC or Mac does indeed check for specs to ensure you can run it or what settings the program or game will run at. That's because not all PCs or Macs have the same hardware. A console game doesn't do this, at most all it needs to check is if your firmware is the one they built the game on or ahead of it which is akin to checking for operating system on a computer. While this is similar, it is different in the fact that a console game knows your hardware specs will be the same as someone else with the same console.

Drivers have a limitation determined by the hardware using them so your idea of "upgrading drivers, config, etc." doesn't solve the limitation on upgrade potential for a console game.

Your solution is nothing like emulating a PS1 game on a PC. You're still playing a PS1 game at PS1 specs not at your PC's specs when you emulate it.

[CapriciousOne]

While consoles are built with PC hardware or hardware derived from PC counter parts developing for PC and developing exclusively for a console are not the same thing.

1. My PC built in 2001 originally has been upgraded with the latest hardware it was compatible with to be able to play and run Sims 3, before the hardware upgrades it wouldn't even run Sims 2 correctly. This option for upgrading is non existent in the console world.

2. The PS2 hasn't gotten any hardware upgrades allowing it to become more powerful than it was at launch. All consoles are the same, though 360 and PS3 do have the ability to upgrade the firmware interacting with them, though that's still not the same thing.

3. By the way you do have to rebuild DOS based games to run on current Windows OS unless you build a DOS emulator to run said game.

I've worked on PS2, Wii, 360, and PS3 console development. The biggest common factor on every game I worked on was getting it running on a PC first because the idea of a PC version was on the table as a reality or possibility. The games were then toned down and then ported over to the given console.

For whatever reason this wasn't how SE did it or maybe they've since lost the initial PC base or built around the PS2 code base instead. That's most likely why the PC version is a Direct X wrapper and not a true PC version.




4. When you emulate a PS1 game on your PC that likely has specs closer to a PS3 does the PS1 game look and run like a PS3 game or a PS1 game?

While a program or game designed for a PC or Mac does indeed check for specs to ensure you can run it or what settings the program or game will run at. That's because not all PCs or Macs have the same hardware. A console game doesn't do this, at most all it needs to check is if your firmware is the one they built the game on or ahead of it which is akin to checking for operating system on a computer. While this is similar, it is different in the fact that a console game knows your hardware specs will be the same as someone else with the same console.

Drivers have a limitation determined by the hardware using them so your idea of "upgrading drivers, config, etc." doesn't solve the limitation on upgrade potential for a console game.

Your solution is nothing like emulating a PS1 game on a PC. You're still playing a PS1 game at PS1 specs not at your PC's specs when you emulate it.

1. I agree but it is for this reason that I feel that any design would be marginal at best because this exact reason. The consoles have specific hardware as opposed to the PC where programmers have to program to the least common denominator to get it to work on most machines. I feel this would greatly reduce development time overall especially since for the most part it has already been done for it to even work on a 360 or PS3 in the first place.

2. Not exactly what I meant so my mistake. While yes the original console has not been upgraded and probably isnt even made any more the fact still stands that the PS3 is more powerful. The ps2 was only running at maybe a few hundred megahertz/s but now with the ps3/360 multicore processing power why not utilize this power in an extension. Taking a bit from your explanation earlier in answer 1 wouldnt it be easier to create a next gen console wrapper with more power at it disposal and tone it down then totally rewrite the ps2 version to 360/pc/ps3? I wish they released that poll about what consoles are being used to play this game or maybe it was and I just missed it, but assuming that most are now playing this game either on pc, 360, or PS3 then i see no reason this isnt reasonable. I mean the most that will happen is that ps2 gamers wont be able to access new content.

I am also looking at this from the understanding that the firmware of a console operates much like the BIOS of the PC extending basic functionality of the console and adding routines for programmers to use to interact with said hardware and its capabilities. Now I'll be first to admit that understanding may be flawed but the whole point of upgradeable firmware was
the ability to add new functionality to the console without completely replacing the console and that this was something developers could expand upon if desired.

3. Well as far as running dos based stuff on windows I dont know. I myself am running ffXI on my ps3 and Windows XP pc in case my ps3 needs to get repaired. In any case I have never needed an emulator to run anything dos based with the exception of maybe dos based disk utilities which technically you wouldnt be running anyway on a windows os unless the os wouldnt boot and was using dos in dual boot enviro to fix it. Technically though the command prompt shell in windows is a form of emulator and I dont see why a dos program on something like a windows 7 pc wouldnt run when there is compatibilty mode to earlier versions of windows that ran old dos programs no problem. I suppose that is totally off topic however so I'll leave it alone.

4. You are only partially right about this here. When I run my ps1 games on my pc using an emulator it does still look like a ps1 game but most emulators are only built to get it to run. In the same way one could improve the quality of a video by using a larger resolution as well as higher bit rate most emulators dont do as it is alot of work I imagine. In any case since the specs PS2 games were built on were far inferior than that of 360 or PS3 some code to improve and utilize the many cores to upsample that image quality and not just use a bigger resolute could've been done but just been refused. Other than that though the emulator runs those PS1 games faster and alot smoother than the ps1 was able too as far as perfomance and stability goes, at least by my standards. The same could also do the same but as always it is about making the most money with lowest effort at this point with FFXI so I dont expect much there. If you are running an PS1 game on an emulator on your PC and dont notice a performance boost you either have a POS PC or lot of other crap bogging it down in the background.

Essentially the extensions I am referring to would completely ignore the PS2 architecture and just utilize the PS3/360 implementations of the same routines, tweaking as needed. Perfect example is that same DirectX wrapper to which you refer. You can increase the quality of the character and environment by using the config tool given for SE. It is the "Background Resolution" setting which by default is 512x512 but can be increased to 2048x2048 for even more better quality though at the expense of performance but for the 360/PS3 with so many cores I doubt this is a real issue. In any case the orginal rendering of the characters and environment on the disk would still be the same but when it reach the GPU of the 360/PS3 would be more or less upsampled to higher quality.

For all we know though SCEA as well as MS have already provided the means for SE to do it but they just refuse which wouldn't be a shock to me. My PC would only run ps1 games at ps1 specs only because teh developer has not written anything to take advantage of the resources it has access, no other reason hence the "drivers" or firmware

[Atomic_Skull]

I really think that square enix should at least hire new people to rewrite (not change) the code for xi for pc. It would give them an opportunity to clear out some of the poorly written spaghetti code, which could be then ported back to ps2 and xbox. It would also give them a clean slate to port to the vita. I don't think people would want to buy into xi on a handheld if the client is a buggy as the xbox one can be at times.

They have to rewrite it for the Vita anyway because the Vita uses OpenGL not DirectX.

[Nala]

either way they are basically rebuilding 14 from the ground, only things that are going to be the same once they finish with it is the base model designs and the back ground lore for the game, every thing else will have been reworked, gutted, revamped, renewed or otherwise revised. (as compared to its parameters upon the "official" launch)

given that 11 is a stable source of income and likely not to go away any time soon despite server mergers some level of effort to a similar scale for 11 would do wonders for its ability to sustain the gamer population.

[Atomic_Skull]

either way they are basically rebuilding 14 from the ground, only things that are going to be the same once they finish with it is the base model designs and the back ground lore for the game, every thing else will have been reworked, gutted, revamped, renewed or otherwise revised. (as compared to its parameters upon the "official" launch)

given that 11 is a stable source of income and likely not to go away any time soon despite server mergers some level of effort to a similar scale for 11 would do wonders for its ability to sustain the gamer population.

The problem is that right now SE sees continued development on FFXI as temporary until they fix FFXIV. They had originally planed for it to be a ghost town by now with everyone having switched over to FFXIV. That plan has not changed, they've just given FFXI a stay of execution as it were.

[Seiver]

back to the EVE online thing. ya the game is about as old as WoW and FFXI but the company that runs EVE made its foundation on that game and its still growing, where ffxi is vary slowly dieing. why focus mostly on a dieing game when you can build a new one that will have a draw to a new generation.