Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

**Malamasala** · 09-05-2011 04:02 AM

You: Spirits are useless outside of siphon, but since they aren't needed, they don't need any updates.
Me: Avatars are useful all the time. Since they are already useful, they don't need any updates.

Those two lines pretty much covers all past and future discussions.

Or well, it would, but the current topic is if SE could give me an official statement on what is going to happen to spirits. And statements aren't updates, so there really is no use arguing against lost developer time, unless looking at the road map they have at HQ counts as waste of time.

**Razushu** · 09-05-2011 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Malamasala

You: Spirits are useless outside of siphon, but since they aren't needed, they don't need any updates.
Me: Avatars are useful all the time. Since they are already useful, they don't need any updates.

Those two lines pretty much covers all past and future discussions.

Or well, it would, but the current topic is if SE could give me an official statement on what is going to happen to spirits. And statements aren't updates, so there really is no use arguing against lost developer time, unless looking at the road map they have at HQ counts as waste of time.

Avatar's still need a buff, BP delay still needs a fix, we haven't gotten real rage pacts since the merit pacts, and Avatar melee damage is FAR too weak. Weighed against spirits Avatars are fine, but compared to other jobs and their pets they need a big buff.

A statement isn't really needed though, it's been made abundantly clear by their complete silence on spirits(and they've been quite vocal about us SMNs lately), and the fact they haven't been updated since Elemental Siphon, even forgetting they were unmentioned in the manifesto, it's fairly plain that spirits aren't on the agenda, and as such you're unlikely to get an official statement on them. All I said initially was that is was unlikely the reps are going to go to the devs with questions on spirits because it's been made quite obvious that at this time they aren't looking at spirits(if they ever were), because they probably know a helluva lot more about whats going on in SE, and as such know what questions are/aren't gonna get answered.

**Malamasala** · 09-05-2011 03:29 PM

A statement isn't really needed though, it's been made abundantly clear by their complete silence on spirits

Again, it isn't needed for a person with no interest in spirits. For all us others, there is a need. For example we could shave off another 500 spirit posts a year if it is confirmed that it is pointless to talk about them.

Being silent about spirits just give people hope that they'll be adjusted. And each update without that adjustment makes people more discontent with SE and closer to quitting. It is in everyones best interest, except yours and Korpgs, to get a statement on the future of spirits.

**Tannlore** · 09-05-2011 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Malamasala

Again, it isn't needed for a person with no interest in spirits. For all us others, there is a need. For example we could shave off another 500 spirit posts a year if it is confirmed that it is pointless to talk about them.

Being silent about spirits just give people hope that they'll be adjusted. And each update without that adjustment makes people more discontent with SE and closer to quitting. It is in everyones best interest, except yours and Korpgs, to get a statement on the future of spirits.

In all honesty with the exception of the occasional post like this I completely forget they have existed since I've been playing 2003. Well no that's not completely true, siphon brought them back enough that I remembered enough when I was low on mp I guess.

I think the writing is pretty plain to read as far as spirits go: SE is going to do nothing about them. They haven't mentioned anything about them in any of the updates at all. There's no change to them on the test server... nothing at all. They may have just resigned to leave them as portable mana batteries and the occasional/accidental yellow procs.

Really any real functionality they may have given them, they gave to other jobs. Puppetmaster comes to mind specifically when I think of this. Any sort of improvement on the AI I can think of, I just think of my own automation and it's own behaviors/strengths/weaknesses... and I can't help but think: this was SE's answer: They did this. It never really occurred to me until I leveled pup (this was before aby came out) and I noticed the similarities in my healing frame and my light spirit and it dawned on me.

**Korpg** · 09-05-2011 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Malamasala

I said Spirits as a whole. Most of them were showing that spirit spells ended at 75, while the newer ones were pretty much in direct response to your constant complaining by throwing out a new idea about how to use spirits, but none of them were to make spirits anywhere close to being the same or surpassing avatars in power. Many of them were repeats anyway, and there are more players who were against them than for them.

I speak for the threads above. Who do you speak for? All the threads I didn't link? Sorry, but those aren't "anti spirit" threads, they are just threads on other topics. (Mainly BP timers, wards, new avatars, all 3 which has been answered in the thread btw, leaving only spirits as the unanswered big question)

Of course there aren't any "anti-spirit" thread because spirits are not a problem, or really important, or important enough to warrant a thread by the majority of players (most of those you posted were flaws of the spirits as it stands, but it isn't like anyone is going to go around and make a thread on WAR stating to take away Berserk, now is there?)

I listen to everyone except Korpg and Raz, two people who have proved they do not listen to my viewpoint so why should I listen to theirs? Funny enough that usually means there is nobody left saying anything negative about spirits.

Funny enough, that is because we are the most vocal about not improving spirits. If you ignore everyone who doesn't share the same viewpoint as you, then you are going to ignore everyone because no one can share the same viewpoint as you.

You have no idea how long that perspective is though. For all you know, it could be talking just this september update. I want to hear if there are any plans at all for spirits, or if they are OFFICIALLY counted as junk code.

You want to know the plans they have for SMN?

Originally Posted by From Square Enix themselves

Vision
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies

We intend to make it easier for avatars to wreak havoc upon enemies, but also emphasize how vital the act of managing the source of their magical powers is to summoners.

Example Adjustments

A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.
Introducing the avatars Cait Sith and Atomos.

I'm sure you have seen this many times. No where in this does it say spirits at all. They don't mention it because it is not an issue. Everyone but you have seem to realize that. They don't expect people to have spirits and only spirits at level 90, much less level 75. If you are the exception, then you really need to get friends to help you with the level 65 avatar fights because you can not solo them yourself.

**Korpg** · 09-05-2011 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is in everyones best interest, except yours and Korpgs, to get a statement on the future of spirits.

Actually, it would be in everyone's best interest because it would shave off 800 of your posts a year demanding an update to spirits so great that it would equal or surpass avatars.

I would welcome such a statement. Maybe then you would keep quiet and understand the real need of this job.

**Malamasala** · 09-06-2011 01:50 AM

In all honesty with the exception of the occasional post like this I completely forget they have existed since I've been playing 2003.

I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it. I'm reminded every time someone wants to trigger grellow, because I know I can cover 2 per element, but not efficient enough to bother. Every time I walk through magic aggro zones, I'm reminded that spirits can cast magic without magic aggro... but it has never been used because it was never worth it.

I feel like I have a a million dollars, but am trapped in a country that doesn't let me pay in dollars. Funny enough I'm surrounded by people saying "You can pay in this currency instead, why do you care about dollars?". Perhaps because I have such a potentially great thing, that I'm being cockblocked from by SE.

**Korpg** · 09-06-2011 02:03 AM

[QUOTE=Malamasala;189742]I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it.[quote]

You don't have it. The spirit has it, and only casts it when the AI determines that the player in question needs Cure V. You have no control over the spirit casting Cure V, so therefor you do not have Cure V.

I'm reminded every time someone wants to trigger grellow, because I know I can cover 2 per element, but not efficient enough to bother.

While possible to proc yellow (not called grellow btw), the spirit randomly casts the magic, not you. You have no control over the spell cast with the sole exception of which element it can cast. Because you do not have control over the spell cast, you do not own the spell and can determine if the spell is that right proc.

Every time I walk through magic aggro zones, I'm reminded that spirits can cast magic without magic aggro... but it has never been used because it was never worth it.

Pets are not players, and have no control over what they do (in the case of spirits). If they cast a spell to buff themselves, and in the sole case of Light Spirit, the player(s), they do not get aggro because they determined that the target needs the buff and casts the buff on that target, and SE also determined that, because the control of casting the spell is in the pet's hands and not the player's hands, the aggro issue should not come into play because the aggro will happen towards the player, not the pet, and be detrimental towards the player, not the pet. You do get aggro, however, if you summon a pet in the middle of magic aggro.

I feel like I have a a million dollars, but am trapped in a country that doesn't let me pay in dollars. Funny enough I'm surrounded by people saying "You can pay in this currency instead, why do you care about dollars?". Perhaps because I have such a potentially great thing, that I'm being cockblocked from by SE.

Exchange rates don't exist? If you want to cast Cure V, level WHM. If you want to proc yellow, level BLM/BLU/BRD. If you don't want to get magic aggro by casting, level NIN. You are assuming that this is like WoW and you can not change your job whenever you wish to, which you can (abet limitations of course).

Mala negative post count: 1000. Mala positive post count: 2 You have a 500:1 ratio of negative:positive posts now, congratulations!

**Razushu** · 09-06-2011 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it.

Healing Ruby II, Carbuncles favor and /WHM's Cure IV make up for not having Cure V in our case(I can heal 885HP without D.Seal with HR II + C IV in one go). I've yet to have a problem keeping anyone alive outside Abyssea, hell I've even managed to keep a low man group alive on NMs in Abyssea with /SCH using Carby.

Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'm reminded every time someone wants to trigger grellow, because I know I can cover 2 per element, but not efficient enough to bother. Every time I walk through magic aggro zones, I'm reminded that spirits can cast magic without magic aggro... but it has never been used because it was never worth it.

I'll agree with you on the procs, but with only two of them, if you're going to try procing it's best to bring a group regardless of casting efficency.

You know Avatar's don't magic aggro too, right? And they have some very nice nukes.

Originally Posted by Malamasala

I feel like I have a a million dollars, but am trapped in a country that doesn't let me pay in dollars. Funny enough I'm surrounded by people saying "You can pay in this currency instead, why do you care about dollars?". Perhaps because I have such a potentially great thing, that I'm being cockblocked from by SE.

Maybe you like spending Dollars but it's very easy to turn that 1,000,000USD into 709,801.36 EUR, which will get you just as far. Sometimes you just have to work with whats accepted.

How exactly do you feel spirits not being as powerful as you'd like holding back SMN(aside from procs which even then is a miniscule problem). Does it stop us healing a group? Carbuncle laughs it's shiny blue tail off at this prospect. Does it hurt our ability to DD? Our heavy hitting Avatars /facepalm at this suggestion. Are we prevented from buffing a group? Once again our Avatars are chuckling.

I honestly cannot follow your logic as to spirits requiring attention, nothing about them is holding us back. The ony area they can be expanded as stand alone pets is nuking... yet that's an already filled role, which brings us yet again back to wasted dev time. The job is badly in need of an actual buff that improves our damage and buff potency, not a tweak to spirits so they're slightly less useless in a fight.

**Tannlore** · 09-06-2011 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Malamasala

I'm reminded every time a RDM or SCH whines about Cure V, since I know I have it, but I can't use it. I'm reminded every time someone wants to trigger grellow, because I know I can cover 2 per element, but not efficient enough to bother. Every time I walk through magic aggro zones, I'm reminded that spirits can cast magic without magic aggro... but it has never been used because it was never worth it..

Funny a long... long.. long.. time ago rdm had cure V you know? Did you know that? They did, SE took it from them. Few people actually know that little factoid. I remember the game back then

True spirits can cast magic without magic aggro, did you know your avatars can too? Personally I would rather my avatars be given the ability to proc yellow with their spells that I can control over my spirits who can not control at all. Why aren't you pushing for this instead?

What IS your fascination with spirits? They are considerably weaker than avatars, cost more to upkeep, are practically uncontrollable, were never meant to be a mainstay of the job, were only implemented to stand in for when we didn't have our avatars and then be replaced by them once we did get them. I don't get it....

Thread: Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

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