Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Laphine]

i posted some new numbers back on the last page~

[Insaniac]

Decided to record einherjar because we had a lvl90 Ukon and a lvl90 twash. Unfortunately someone decided to mpk most of our DDs with some blizzaga IIIs. Anyway the only 2 DDs that didn't die were me on DRG and the 90 twash THF so this turned into 90Rhongo vs. 90Twash. Neither one of us had any outside buffs other than tect and shell (lazy whm). The mobs where triple bats ghosts and a corse boss so there was a copious amount of att down and a little paralyze. AnywHay. On to the results.

Damage Summary
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg
THF/NIN              58073       15.72 %       32015           0           0       26058           0          0
DRG/SAM              74064       20.05 %       33090           0        4366       36608           0          0
Wyvern               6437        1.74 %        3906            0        2531           0           0          0

So, with the wyvern included a lowly goon still beat THF by 27.8% with no haste other than hasso on old content mobs.

[Motenten]

Actually it's all wrong! Thf had 85 twash on and war was with ukon 90! bad bad!

.... doh! Only checked that empyrean weapon was in hand, forgot to check level.

Out of curiosity Kinematics, how do you control the uptime of the WAR's JAs?

From what you wrote in your post, it seems you expect the spreadsheet to give you overall averages. It doesn't. Each set is used to set up a single specific state (Berserk up, Agressor up, different gear, etc). It's impossible to pre-configure appropriate blend values for all possible JA combinations, so it's up to you to work out the math on that yourself (such as my B/A/R distributions).

You then set one of the sets to the state you want values for. The second set allows you to do direct comparisons, or simple blendings. For example, Blood Rage was active because I was checking the configuration with that +B+A. It's not active 100% of the time; I weighted that result as 10% of the total DPS.

On the overall comparison i should have used an elvaan war with 8 str merits vs my mithra with 8 dex merits.

That would not be a valid comparison, then.

[Motenten]

Had forgotten about Restraint til Arcon reminded me. Worked out calculations for it and added it to the war spreadsheet (new version uploaded). That gives war another ~6% boost in DPS on average (12%-13% DPS gain, up 50% of the time).

Top end values (since I don't feel like re-running the full average):

War/sam, all JAs, Hasso: 127.332 (111.983 without Blood Rage)
Mnk/war, all JAs: 112.657 (war is 13% ahead, or on par when Blood Rage is down); drops to 79.242 if /nin
Thf/nin, best case, lvl 90 Rudra: 82.234 (mnk is 37% ahead, war is 55% ahead with Blood Rage); /war is basically the same DPS

[noodles355]

What are we trying to figure out anyway now? That War is stronger than Thf for DD? Didn't we already know that?

[Laphine]

yeah, but ppl always say "thf is so weak lolz" and assume it as unchangeable truth. I think what we are trying to do is move away from old definitions and check the current real numbers. If by some miracle thf did do better than the champions, that's a complete change in paradigm. And actually, maybe we might have come close to that, considering thf/war on low haste and against such a hard target does very well comparativelly.

Thf/nin, best case, lvl 90 Rudra: 82.234 (mnk is 37% ahead, war is 55% ahead with Blood Rage); /war is basically the same DPS

Same dps as before or same dps as nin? if the latter, did you set berserk up? lol

[noodles355]

However as soon as you bring in difficult targets with no haste buffs (read a difficult or high leveled fight that isn't zerged) you often move into the realm of dangerous TP moves. So essentially we're descovered that the situations where thief would do well comparable to other heavier DDs are situations where you dont want many melees anyway.

[Laphine]

kinda lol. But Bukhis as parameter isn't much different than gods at lv 75. I never really (needed to) zerg gods. I imagine the middle tier vnms and new dyna nms should be around lv 100 as well. I don't think we need to zerg them.

Well might as well check weaker targets too~

Lv 97 with Dia and red curry as food. The max performance to be quick is the following.
THF/NIN
no haste: 139.7
haste: 152.9
THF/WAR
no haste: 166.1
haste: 181.1
WAR/SAM
no hasso: 148.9
just hasso: 172.2
just haste: 182
haste+hasso: 217

War is super valued by haste again. A reasonable "just haste" war (with seigan) is 19% better than THF/NIN with haste. If the war can go crazy with haste+hasso i see no reason why thf can't go crazy with thf/war. The difference is close to 20% on this case, but at least the war doesn't wipe the floor with the thf/nin lol.

[Ragni]

From what i read here...

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!

The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs - face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.

[Laphine]

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!

You should have gotten the other way around. I think in almost every single page of rage we had, we said we didn't want to be the best, we just wanted the gap between the best and us decreased.

No one is complaning we can't out dd a war, a war exists for the sole reason of damage, of course it deserves to be the best. But TH cannot be used as an excuse anymore. Not when subbed TH is very much the same of the main TH. And not when a bunch of jobs is getting TH now.