Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

[Malamasala]

I disagree with Mala. Some things, like spirits, were never meant for a competent end-game SMN to continue using.

The basic problem with spirits is that they have ZERO use.

- Skill up? Release recast is same delay as the summoning time of an avatar, so you can't summon spirits faster than avatars.
- Aggro help? Carbuncle is given to you for free and he'll guard you your whole life.
etc.

There is a single use out of spirits, and it is Elemental Siphon. Now the follow up question is why SE had this gigantic gap between spirits addition and Siphon when they had no other purpose.

A theory one could make is that Spirits were added due to level 60 avatar battles and it would be "hard" to level to 60 with just carbuncle. Counter argument for this is that if spirits doesn't do better than carbuncle, why would they somehow make the game easier?

I can only think of one single valid argument for why spirits were added. For carbuncle only users to level summoning skill between level 1 and 60 when they get new avatars. That is the ONLY use you can get out of spirits, and after the level 20 avatar battles addition, it is changed to level 1-20 summoning skill up sessions.

If you think there are other alternatives, you are just fooling yourself. (Well there are other alternatives, they are just super specific. Like if your carbuncle gets -ga III:ed on summon and you are too close to the monster to summon an avatar, then a spirit is a faster summon so you can run further away and release and summon a real avatar)

[Razushu]

Raz, no one believes for a second you aren't trying to control the discussion. You attack me in every thread even though you know I have already seen everything you have to offer. You even started this thread assuming melee was off limits. Now you want me to keep in. line. LOL

If the only way you will be civil is if people agree with you, turn your computer off.

You burst into threads, flame, insult posters, derail, fling the word "gimp" round like a monkey flinging poo. I've pretty much ignored you for the last week+. How's that Glass house treating you? You attack me more often than I attack you, in fairness. I don't really even attack you, I disagree with you, granted in a coarser tongue than I give anyone else, but you kinda rub me the wrong way.

I'm civil 90% of the time, unless I'm dealing with, well you. Not trying to control any discussion, merely set up a place where people who wanted to talk about where SE is taking SMN in future updates. Funny thing is you offer nothing but arrogant spiel in return, all I offer are viewpionts based on my experience as a SMN.

I started this thread in line with SE's vision which doesn't include melee(spirits got left out too), not to exclude anyone(theres plenty of threads for these topics already, in fact I'm active in some of them too), but to get large numbers of Summoners talking about the same topics, and on the same page. Anyone with sense can see that, it's why this thread has been responded to twice, and why it's been going strong for 15+ pages.

Aside from against you my arguments are generally quite civil(or try to be). To anyone else that feel I have been rude, or impolite in a post to them, I apologize.

[Razushu]

The basic problem with spirits is that they have ZERO use.

- Skill up? Release recast is same delay as the summoning time of an avatar, so you can't summon spirits faster than avatars.
- Aggro help? Carbuncle is given to you for free and he'll guard you your whole life.
etc.

There is a single use out of spirits, and it is Elemental Siphon. Now the follow up question is why SE had this gigantic gap between spirits addition and Siphon when they had no other purpose.

A theory one could make is that Spirits were added due to level 60 avatar battles and it would be "hard" to level to 60 with just carbuncle. Counter argument for this is that if spirits doesn't do better than carbuncle, why would they somehow make the game easier?

I can only think of one single valid argument for why spirits were added. For carbuncle only users to level summoning skill between level 1 and 60 when they get new avatars. That is the ONLY use you can get out of spirits, and after the level 20 avatar battles addition, it is changed to level 1-20 summoning skill up sessions.

If you think there are other alternatives, you are just fooling yourself. (Well there are other alternatives, they are just super specific. Like if your carbuncle gets -ga III:ed on summon and you are too close to the monster to summon an avatar, then a spirit is a faster summon so you can run further away and release and summon a real avatar)

They're better for skill up due to their 1 second cast time, they can be spammed faster than Avatar. This the same reason they make good aggro pets, we all get caught short sometimes.

[Razushu]

We got a chance to speak to the main summoner himself on the topic of Blood Pacts.

• MP Consumption

The MP cost for Blood Pact: Ward abilities are set rather high because the effects they grant are AoE; however, they are designed to elicit a higher level of benefit when used to support a party.

• Effect duration

As we’re sure you’re aware, depending on the level of your summoning skill, various enhancement bonuses are added to your Blood Pacts. These bonuses make it so ultimately you will see a very noticeable difference in effect duration when compared to other magic spells and abilities. If your skill isn’t fully leveled and you feel that the duration is too short, we recommend raising it up as you will experience quite a significant increase. With the upcoming level cap increase we will be extending the effect duration even further.

• Effect

In regards to magic/abilities that elicit a similar effect to Blood Pacts, we believe that Blood Pacts have significantly high stats, effect duration included. However, with the level cap increase from 75 to 90, these stats have increased further and we would like to look into adjusting the areas where the balance is off. Please continue let us know your feedback especially for the Blood Pacts you feel need adjustments.

Is there any plans to boost the melee powers of our Avatars? As it is they have the melee strength of a naked BLM using H2H. This would be fine if we could buff them, but we can't. They could use some love in the melee department, so maybe they could beat an Easy Prey one on one, umm..... easily.

[Dallas]

Raz, Raz, it's you. No one is insulted at the thought that a guy 80+ levels under cap is Gimp but you. Since you made sure I will never care about you, stop crying. Level your staff skill if you don't like it, but please, get lost when we do discuss skills you refuse to use.

[Korpg]

SMN gets a steady supply of gear that improves MP sustainment. MP doesn't actually *do* anything. It doesn't cure faster. It doesn't kill faster. Put it on a slow job, on a player who would rather use the subjob, and you have a subpar subjob, not a SMN. There's no benefit to inviting a /WHM. In short, players failed SMN.

SMN's gear for MP sustainment because, guess what, that keeps our avatars out, our main source of damage, our main source of buffs, and our main ability as a job. Avatars are what differentiates ourselves from a silenced BLM swinging a staff. Which is what any melee SMN is, a perma-silenced BLM swinging a staff.

But I will have to agree with you, players have failed SMN. Both those who are sub healers only, and those who are melee happy.

[Korpg]

Raz, Raz, it's you. No one is insulted at the thought that a guy 80+ levels under cap is Gimp but you. Since you made sure I will never care about you, stop crying. Level your staff skill if you don't like it, but please, get lost when we do discuss skills you refuse to use.

Your first post was an insult to SMNs everywhere. Everywhere you go, you proclaim yourself as the savior of SMNs everywhere, and your backer Mala comes in and chimes his opinion about how great you are.

Just do us all a favor and stop posting.

[Dallas]

What is it going to be, K? Are you willing to bet your favorite obsession on greater colibri?

[Korpg]

Show your numbers, real numbers, not your fuzzy math and maybe people might still believe you.

Or are you going to continue stating you can beat an Ukon WAR?

[Rakshaka]

We got a chance to speak to the main summoner himself on the topic of Blood Pacts.

• MP Consumption

The MP cost for Blood Pact: Ward abilities are set rather high because the effects they grant are AoE; however, they are designed to elicit a higher level of benefit when used to support a party.

• Effect duration

As we’re sure you’re aware, depending on the level of your summoning skill, various enhancement bonuses are added to your Blood Pacts. These bonuses make it so ultimately you will see a very noticeable difference in effect duration when compared to other magic spells and abilities. If your skill isn’t fully leveled and you feel that the duration is too short, we recommend raising it up as you will experience quite a significant increase. With the upcoming level cap increase we will be extending the effect duration even further.

• Effect

In regards to magic/abilities that elicit a similar effect to Blood Pacts, we believe that Blood Pacts have significantly high stats, effect duration included. However, with the level cap increase from 75 to 90, these stats have increased further and we would like to look into adjusting the areas where the balance is off. Please continue let us know your feedback especially for the Blood Pacts you feel need adjustments.

I would have liked to put together a whole compilation of blood pacts and how balanced I think they are, but I don't think there's enough time to do that before the version update. I'll focus on the bloodpact wards that I believe need to be buffed in order to make them useful across the level ranges.

MP Consumption:
I consider the mp cost of wards to be sufficient. They should cost a lot of mp because they're aoe and most of them have long durations. I believe that's what summoner is supposed to represent; a powerful mage that has incredible abilities that cost more mana than regular spells.

Effect Duration:
The effect duration increase has been wonderful for summoner. Previously we were only able to keep very few buffs on ourselves at any one time. Now we're able to keep a reasonable number of buffs active at any one time. However, there is still a problem with effect duration.

Crimson Howl: this has the shortest duration of any blood pact. Because the duration is so short, it requires more blood pacts over time to keep active 100%. These blood pacts could be better spent on other buffs to STR, accuracy, -evasion on target mobs, etc. The effect duration for this ability should be increased.

Effect:
Your statement about many pacts becoming stronger over the level range of 75 to 90 is incorrect. Some blood pacts were increasing by level until 75 when they stopped. Others have had static potency this entire time. Static potency is ok if the buff itself is percentage based, i.e. haste, shining ruby, crimson howl. Where this becomes a problem is when the buffs have static potency, and they provide a flat amount of improvement over level ranges where the flat amount becomes steadily weaker in comparison. An example would be that noctoshield is more useful at 75 than at 90 because at level 75 (assuming you're fighting a lvl 75 monster) you're mitigating a higher percentage of received damage than at level 90 (assuming you're fighting a lvl 90 monster) because the monsters do more damage.

Glittering Ruby: This ability as it is today is not useful. There is no situation in which you would seriously use this. It randomly buffs one stat, which gradually decreases. The chances that you would boost a useful stat for any one job are at best 3/7. This ability should be modified; instead of boosting one random stat, 2-3 random stats should be boosted. This would give you a decent chance that the stat you're trying to boost would actually be boosted.

Rolling Thunder:
This ability is significantly weaker than Ifrit's Inferno Howl. The duration of Rolling Thunder is about twice as long as Inferno Howl, but it only does about 1/3 of the damage of Inferno Howl.

Ecliptic Growl and Ecliptic Howl
As far as I know, the buffs from these have been static through all levels.

Noctoshield:
The buff from this increased with level up to level 75, after which it has remained static