Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

[Dallas]

SE is welcome to ignore anything I say to K. It rarely involves Smn.

[Razushu]

SE is welcome to ignore anything I say to K. It rarely involves Smn.

Maybe they will maybe they won't but can't you try to say it to him in a different thread, if the reps start having to wade through a flame war they'll stop bothering to read the real suggestions here.

[Dallas]

Believe me, if I could convince him to seek acceptance from other WAR, you'd be levelling staff, raz.

[Korpg]

Dallas, we had a good thread going until you came here, then, BAM, you screw everything up.

[Pyrobunny]

my staff needs work but my summoning magic is capped i soloed it all the way to 75 back in the day so i never had a problem with it not at cap.

a good way to skill up at 90 is use the ducal guard, mounted champ, and MM atma and go fight IC's
other smn solo friendly NM's are great for skill ups also but IC's are the best

on another note SE please give smn all the staff ws or make wands that are as good as the trial staves.

[Razushu]

Believe me, if I could convince him to seek acceptance from other WAR, you'd be levelling staff, raz.

Trying to derail the one Summoner thread SE is noticeably paying attention to? WTH man, you've honestly just convinced me you don't have SMN leveled, this thread is our current best shot at voicing our problems/fears and requests for Summoner. You must either hate SMN or are just afraid that if they actually fix this jobit will make your playstyle look even weaker than it does when compared to real DDs.

Please, I'm asking nicely. If you want to troll, flame, push your agenda take it to a different thread you'll be just as heard in the general job adjustments thread without doing any damage to Summoner.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

This is pretty similar to Avatar’s Favor. What about adding this effect through merit points?

Unless the effect can go over 100 points, it wont be worth the merits. It would be better off being bart of avatar's favor and an effect based on skill level.

[Dallas]

Raz, best shot at being heard? Seriously, do you know anything about Mala? If there is anything wrong with SMN, Mala has said it more times than you have posts. SE has heard all complaints a thousand times, in at least 2 different languages, on a dozen forums, at a dozen conventions, in countless interviews, and likely in every "job update" board meeting.

SE has also told us many times that we are a GROUP JOB. By design, our wards are expensive. By design, we were allowed to buff NPCs in Campaign. We asked for better AOE ranges, they didn't flinch at giving it to us.

I disagree with Mala. Some things, like spirits, were never meant for a competent end-game SMN to continue using. What we do have is powerful, for a hybrid job. We are an moderate DD, moderate buffer, moderate healer, all wrapped up in one. We are designed to have a limited 3-part role in a party.

Most SMN take the job halfway. Presumably you aren't the healer, so lets say you are buffing 4 other DD (the most you can hope to buff as SMN). If you and your pet attacked as well, you'd be buffing 6 DD, not 4. 50% more buffing potential, twice the damage. Not good enough? Assault generates pettp, which can be used for AOE cures. Garuda caps at 507HP on an off day, 248, I believe, is at 0 pettp. /SCH can buff that as well. 50% more buffing, double damage, double healing. Not good enough? Get to this level, then we'll talk.

SE isn't going to find a band-aid to fix SMN. It's not broken, it's slow. It's not even that slow...

And to answer my own question: Why do SMN not get invited to groups? Because every other job gets a steady supply of gear that improves damage/buffs/cures. SMN gets a steady supply of gear that improves MP sustainment. MP doesn't actually *do* anything. It doesn't cure faster. It doesn't kill faster. Put it on a slow job, on a player who would rather use the subjob, and you have a subpar subjob, not a SMN. There's no benefit to inviting a /WHM. In short, players failed SMN.

I know you want to control the content that SE reads. Maybe somehow you think if SE doesn't see melee, they won't know about melee. Too late. They won't be uninventing Myrkr, and it won't magically get harder to obtain. Those complaints about Spirit Taker that led to Myrkr? That was probably Mala or me, and we would have submitted those changes 4-5 years ago.

You should get used to the idea that SE has had a plan in place for years. You are allowed to offer opinions, but it's very possible you are too late to make any difference. Stop worrying about what I have to say and how SE might react. I told SE long before you even knew about me.

[Razushu]

Raz, best shot at being heard? Seriously, do you know anything about Mala? If there is anything wrong with SMN, Mala has said it more times than you have posts. SE has heard all complaints a thousand times, in at least 2 different languages, on a dozen forums, at a dozen conventions, in countless interviews, and likely in every "job update" board meeting.

No offense meant to Mala, but they tends to do it in a very negative, or aggressive way, I'm not saying I can't see why just that if I had to read threads all day in work I'd skim these kinds at best. They are very, very vocal when it comes to criticising SE, and it's employees, again likely to get skimmed. Mala also asks for things SE clearly has not intention of changing/feels works as well as it should, and asks as if they feel these are desperately needed fixes. So far this thread has been well thought out and on topic(Mala's posts included), which fyi is the future of SMN, in line with SE's vision(as SE are more likely to listen to these types of requests/Qs)

SE has also told us many times that we are a GROUP JOB. By design, our wards are expensive. By design, we were allowed to buff NPCs in Campaign. We asked for better AOE ranges, they didn't flinch at giving it to us.

They have started to enhance our buffs, the duration boost was a GREAT start.

I disagree with Mala. Some things, like spirits, were never meant for a competent end-game SMN to continue using. What we do have is powerful, for a hybrid job. We are an moderate DD, moderate buffer, moderate healer, all wrapped up in one. We are designed to have a limited 3-part role in a party.

I completely agree with you here, they've given us a boost to our buffing, and our healing is still fine Avatar + subjob we make a fine support healer. The only thing still suffering is our DD, and the upcoming update should hopefully fix this.

Most SMN take the job halfway. Presumably you aren't the healer, so lets say you are buffing 4 other DD (the most you can hope to buff as SMN). If you and your pet attacked as well, you'd be buffing 6 DD, not 4. 50% more buffing potential, twice the damage. Not good enough? Assault generates pettp, which can be used for AOE cures. Garuda caps at 507HP on an off day, 248, I believe, is at 0 pettp. /SCH can buff that as well. 50% more buffing, double damage, double healing. Not good enough? Get to this level, then we'll talk.

I almost thought you were going to make a post without the added completely baseless arrogance, almost.

I've buffed 5 DD before, /WHM I can still keep a party alive outside Abyssea on my own. The pet will be attacking anyway, and will only recieve it's own buffs. That math only works if you and your Avatar are each doing the same as a WAR, a SMN does 1/4 of the damage of a WAR(when recieving the same buffs), so avatar aside a SMN meleeing along the 4 WARs is only adding 1/16th to the total damage party. Carby gives a better AoE cure 388HP baseline, relying on Garuda's TP to give decent cures is ok if they're once off, but if you need those cures on a regular basis it's not always going to be at 300%TP. /SCH is great if you know cures are going to be covered, and -nas will be heavily needed or are in a mage party. Not to brag but as a SMN/WHM I can deal nice spike damage, buff and main heal a party(outside Abyssea) indefinitely, no resting, so I can safely say I'm playing at a high level already.

SE isn't going to find a band-aid to fix SMN. It's not broken, it's slow. It's not even that slow...

We're a spike damage dealer that is hampered by a 45second timer, fix the timer fix the damage.

And to answer my own question: Why do SMN not get invited to groups? Because every other job gets a steady supply of gear that improves damage/buffs/cures. SMN gets a steady supply of gear that improves MP sustainment. MP doesn't actually *do* anything. It doesn't cure faster. It doesn't kill faster. Put it on a slow job, on a player who would rather use the subjob, and you have a subpar subjob, not a SMN. There's no benefit to inviting a /WHM. In short, players failed SMN.

My SMN is always accepted to parties, only thing I'm regularly left out of is seal parties. We get BP delay -, enhances avatar : atk & acc, pet :MAB, summoning magic skill +, and gear that enhances various traits& abilities. These alll enhance our damage/cures/buffs, these help us buff better, cure more, cure faster & killer faster. No SMN is relying on /WHM, we use /XXX to enhance our usefullness and expand our role in a party not replace it. If a SMN goes to a group as just a /WHM they fail as a player just as much as a SMN going just a /SAM to a party.

I know you want to control the content that SE reads. Maybe somehow you think if SE doesn't see melee, they won't know about melee. Too late. They won't be uninventing Myrkr, and it won't magically get harder to obtain. Those complaints about Spirit Taker that led to Myrkr? That was probably Mala or me, and we would have submitted those changes 4-5 years ago.

I'm not trying to control what SE read I just want a thread they'll actually read(been pretty successful so far), I know SE knows about melee mages, they're the ones who added the gear that lets you do it.

You should get used to the idea that SE has had a plan in place for years. You are allowed to offer opinions, but it's very possible you are too late to make any difference. Stop worrying about what I have to say and how SE might react. I told SE long before you even knew about me.

I'm well aware SE has a plan already for SMN, I said so in the OP. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what they're doing atm, and where they're taking it, in line with that plan(read my OP), so that we can give suggestions and provide feedback on what adjustments we do/don't like.

To do this we need a thread the comm. reps will actually read and look over, not just another flame war. Feel free to post here you'll be welcome, but please try to keep in line with the OP and for the most part everyone elses posts. It's been working so far, they're definitely paying attention.

Threads like this are our best bet to be heard by SE, other jobs are all pretty unified on what they want( and even when they're not they mostly still want things in line with what SE is planning), SMN doesn't have that we have Hyrbrid SMNs, backline SMNs, melee SMNs, solo-only SMNs, spirit SMNs, even people who just like to flame SMNs. For once we are providing a relatively unified front for SE to see, and it's working. So please join us in trying to be heard, help us push SMN forward(we can only do this if we have SE's ear), or kindly step aside, there's plenty of threads already full of SMN infighting.

[Dallas]

Raz, no one believes for a second you aren't trying to control the discussion. You attack me in every thread even though you know I have already seen everything you have to offer. You even started this thread assuming melee was off limits. Now you want me to keep in. line. LOL

If the only way you will be civil is if people agree with you, turn your computer off.