Summoner ~ Updating Avatars & Elemental Spirits. Blood pacts, wards, and spell list.

[Razushu]

I like updates that give a lot of of effect.

Improved avatar melee won't change a thing, except parser results.
Improved BP:Rage damage won't change a thing, except parser results.
Reducing perpetuation would allow low level SMNs to play... but these days low levels are gone so less important.

Improved BP timer will make a difference, and SE are working on this. Hopefully it will be a big difference.

Improving ward potency would make a large difference, and allow us to put up for example phalanx with useful potency.
Improving spirits would make a large difference, and allow us to DD at greater distances, or assist whole alliances.
Improving favors so that it isn't just a negative with very little positive bonus would also go a long way.

Improved Avatar damage both DPS and Blood Pact would really change things, we would get more invites as a ranged /magical DD than we do now, i.e an accepted general use nuker rather than the common no TP only most people seem to suffer from. Wards potency would help us out a great deal(personally after getting BP delay fixed, this is the fix I'd most like to see), I'm fairly hopeful for it because they've already fixed ward durations.

The problem with fixing spirits is they would just end up stepping on the Avatars toes. Want a nuke pet? We have one already. Tank/DD pet? got one. Support pet? Have it. The only unique use to spirits aside from us now being able to play AFK, is the light spirit alliance cures, but even this is only really useful if you happen to be the only healer in the group. With all the main roles already covered by Avatars, all there was left for our low level pets was MP management. Unless SE can create a new role for spirits a buff to them would be pointless, and will probably take a back burneruntil the job is fixed itself.

I simply want updates that make people go "Oh, you can do that now?" rather than having to say "Did you see that? My avatar melee hit did 100 damage". I have a feeling that the job will be more popular if it visibly is updated, than if you have to go on a forum and post a parse to show the update difference.

Spirit update -> People ask why you use spirits -> They get amazed at the big change -> Spread word that SMN is much better now.
Avatar damage update -> Nobody notices because WAR still does highest damage -> You have to advertise the changes yourself.

I still think that even if you dislike my ideas, those benefit SMNs more in the long run. Assuming of course that they "Fix" things, and not just do a half-assed attempt and end up with something like favors, which is just not good enough to give a new role to SMN and impress people.

A gimmick update, like making spirits comparable to Avatars in nukeing etc. would not go like that at all.

Spirit update-> why are you using spirits -> "oh so nothings really changed" -> SMN in the same place with more pets to choose from.
-> no one other than SMNs care.
Avatar Damage update-> things die faster-> even bigger spike damage numbers-> we have something to advertise.

A damage boost would be a very visible buff as is, I still surprise some people on SMN when I make a mobs HP bar go away, with one Predator claws, and take healthy chunks off an NMs life, a good boost to Avatar damage would actually be the most notable buff to the job. We already have a rep as spike DDs, increase our damage and spread that rep further = more people bringing SMN to more things.Having said this the new BP delay JA could provide this boost.

It's not that I dislike your ideas, it's just when it comes to spirits all it would amount to is a side grade, unless they make them stronger than our Avatars(which I can't see happening). As a job we need arguably the most love, and even though it's starting to look like we're gonna get it, I'd rather they buff the things we use everyday, before looking at things like spirits.

[Korpg]

Improving spirits would make a large difference, and allow us to DD at greater distances, or assist whole alliances.

I'm sorry, but how would improvement on spirits make any difference at all when you don't have any control over them, or allow anyone to DD at greater distance when you can't do anything until you sic the pet on the mob?

[Covenant]

People talk about balance and don't understand what they're talking about. Every single job wants to do two things only. More melee damage and do it faster(haste). Next you hear two complaints, well loom at warriors I can't compete. This argument from WHM, RDM, and Summoners. As if your supposed to be meleeN and getting the same numbers warrior get.

Summoners are supposed to have a spread of abilites across all of the summons(not only avatars). If SquareEnix had kept the original separation of nuke/spirits and physical/avatar it would have been easier to see. Unfortunately, they cavedin dropping all support to spirits 1year after game release and focused on avatar alone.

I can understand some of their thinking. Namely, any pet changes would not only affect players but mob pets as well. How would players like to see elementals and pets casting -JA, AMII, and whatnot spells. For the most part mob avatar are NM only and any player changes would have limited impact on mobs. Unfortunately elementals and pets are everywhere.
Second, players abandon elemental early on due to high perp costs and super slow casting cycles. Only elite player would appropriate gear could hope to lower casting cycles to the cap of 33secs? Can you imagine who would play BLM if they could only cast every 30sec~1min? And only on a set cycle? No player would ever play that job. As no summoner uses spirits for exactly those reasons.

Extra damage and faster damage is always a plus, but we have to BAlANCE summoner with other uses.

[Soundwave]

I'm sorry, but how would improvement on spirits make any difference at all when you don't have any control over them, or allow anyone to DD at greater distance when you can't do anything until you sic the pet on the mob?

I'm know its kinda corny, but I just saw the new planet of the apes movie and here is a quote....

**Contains Spoilers**

Sometimes things aren't meant to be controlled. *Later in the movie shit got out of hand if you know what I mean.

If we can control spirits as well as avatar I'm afraid it would just upset the current balance between spirits and avatars. I know your dying for some type of update Mala.....don't get your hopes up when it does come....because spirits won't > Avatars.

I would personally like to see more updates to our avatars rather than a mindless AI.

[Razushu]

People talk about balance and don't understand what they're talking about. Every single job wants to do two things only. More melee damage and do it faster(haste). Next you hear two complaints, well loom at warriors I can't compete. This argument from WHM, RDM, and Summoners. As if your supposed to be meleeN and getting the same numbers warrior get.

Summoners are supposed to have a spread of abilites across all of the summons(not only avatars). If SquareEnix had kept the original separation of nuke/spirits and physical/avatar it would have been easier to see. Unfortunately, they cavedin dropping all support to spirits 1year after game release and focused on avatar alone.

I can understand some of their thinking. Namely, any pet changes would not only affect players but mob pets as well. How would players like to see elementals and pets casting -JA, AMII, and whatnot spells. For the most part mob avatar are NM only and any player changes would have limited impact on mobs. Unfortunately elementals and pets are everywhere.
Second, players abandon elemental early on due to high perp costs and super slow casting cycles. Only elite player would appropriate gear could hope to lower casting cycles to the cap of 33secs? Can you imagine who would play BLM if they could only cast every 30sec~1min? And only on a set cycle? No player would ever play that job. As no summoner uses spirits for exactly those reasons.

Extra damage and faster damage is always a plus, but we have to BAlANCE summoner with other uses.

SE has never said they want us to use Avatars and spirits equally, in fact whenever they talk about us the say "Avatars". Why would the elemental Gods not have access to heavier nukes than spirits? I honestly don't see how SE could have intended us to use spirits for nuking over Avatars, they're damage was terrible even at low levels. The spirits were there so Summoners could have something other than Carbuncle to use when SMN was first introduced, they were then given new life with Elemental Siphon. This ability alone makes them far more used than some of our Avatars.

Thank Altana they let spirits fall behind in favour of Avatars nuking, I wouldn't like the choice of Buffing/DDing(w/Physical pacts) vs. unpredicatable nukes only. A controllable pet is also far superior to an AI one(ask any PUP), I'd take Heavenly strike on demand every time over a chance of a Tier IV or AM. There's nothing wrong with abandoning spirits early in favor of Avatars(ask any newb lvl 1 WAR that picks up a G.Axe over the Onion Sword at the earliest point possible), the tools we use at low level get replaced by our higher level abilities sometimes.

[Soundwave]

SE has never said they want us to use Avatars and spirits equally, in fact whenever they talk about us the say "Avatars". Why would the elemental Gods not have access to heavier nukes than spirits? I honestly don't see how SE could have intended us to use spirits for nuking over Avatars, they're damage was terrible even at low levels. The spirits were there so Summoners could have something other than Carbuncle to use when SMN was first introduced, they were then given new life with Elemental Siphon. This ability alone makes them far more used than some of our Avatars.

Thank Altana they let spirits fall behind in favour of Avatars nuking, I wouldn't like the choice of Buffing/DDing(w/Physical pacts) vs. unpredicatable nukes only. A controllable pet is also far superior to an AI one(ask any PUP), I'd take Heavenly strike on demand every time over a chance of a Tier IV or AM. There's nothing wrong with abandoning spirits early in favor of Avatars(ask any newb lvl 1 WAR that picks up a G.Axe over the Onion Sword at the earliest point possible), the tools we use at low level get replaced by our higher level abilities sometimes.

This post x100, everything is spot on here to me.

[Covenant]

I don't ever say that spirits should ever overtake avatars, however look at my OP argument. Avatars received TWO tiers of magic before Blackmages, namely tier II and IV, by a significant factor(usually 10-16 levels before). Spirits matched BLM Mage nuking capabilities lvl for lvl, Gaining tier 1-IV, and AM.

Logically, the level in-between an avatars tier II and IV, nuking would be filled by spirits in a very limited capacity. Avatars however, were the first players to receive the dual/tri effect capabilities that a Bluemage now enjoys. For example, titan was damage/slow, Ramuh dmage/paralyze...etc. It was a physical attack with strong elemental components. At best as summoner/avatar nukes were simply for magic burst situations(10%) with their physical Bloodpacts for 80-90% of their use.

The point of the physical damage down effect of spirits as opposed to avatars. Spirits by their very nature are not fully represented on the physical plane. Spirits represent an elemental energy, while avatars have NO natural physical down capabilities other than those by bloodwards. Avatar have manifested in a physical body to strike out at enemies, making them much more vulnerable to physical damage.

I'm actually disappointed by the path avatars have taken. The path I see is simply one of out damaging the previous ability. Rather than simple damage for avatars, SE should return to the multi-effect path of avatars earlier power and enhance them even more greatly. Abilties like "Nightmare" are amazing...sleep WITH Damage over time or even Ramuh Thunder strike still is impressive. Would a ten-hit strike for every avatar be cool? Of course it would.

Not being an "end-game" player, I still here people talking about NM resistances. What if Summoners could bridge the gaps for player to land normal debuffs and spells?

[Razushu]

I don't ever say that spirits should ever overtake avatars, however look at my OP argument. Avatars received TWO tiers of magic before Blackmages, namely tier II and IV, by a significant factor(usually 10-16 levels before). Spirits matched BLM Mage nuking capabilities lvl for lvl, Gaining tier 1-IV, and AM.

Logically, the level in-between an avatars tier II and IV, nuking would be filled by spirits in a very limited capacity. Avatars however, were the first players to receive the dual/tri effect capabilities that a Bluemage now enjoys. For example, titan was damage/slow, Ramuh dmage/paralyze...etc. It was a physical attack with strong elemental components. At best as summoner/avatar nukes were simply for magic burst situations(10%) with their physical Bloodpacts for 80-90% of their use.

Yeah and we get them all in one chunk(because there's no damage hierarchy in them), If Avatars got them like BLM, it would take 20 levels(tier IIs) to get them all, and we wouldn't start getting the Tier IVs until 68. Giving them to use in two chunks at lvl10 and lvl60 gave SE the ability to skip Tiers I & III, while keeping with their "we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited." standpoint, I know it's flawed as far as Physical pacts are concerned, but we're discussing nukes and until Abyssea(Atma of the Beyond), Avatars were equal as to which 75 Pacts are picked.

Technically Theres no "in-between Levels", unless you count lvl51-59 where we are stuck with Tier IIs while BLMs start getting Tier IIIs. Until then we're using Tier IIs while BLMs do and we start using Tier IVs, while BLMs are on Tier IIIs.

It would be nice if they updated the 70 pacts with an Added effect(they already started with Thunder Strike's Stun), or even add them to the merit pacts.

The point of the physical damage down effect of spirits as opposed to avatars. Spirits by their very nature are not fully represented on the physical plane. Spirits represent an elemental energy, while avatars have NO natural physical down capabilities other than those by bloodwards. Avatar have manifested in a physical body to strike out at enemies, making them much more vulnerable to physical damage.

I'm actually disappointed by the path avatars have taken. The path I see is simply one of out damaging the previous ability. Rather than simple damage for avatars, SE should return to the multi-effect path of avatars earlier power and enhance them even more greatly. Abilties like "Nightmare" are amazing...sleep WITH Damage over time or even Ramuh Thunder strike still is impressive. Would a ten-hit strike for every avatar be cool? Of course it would.

Not being an "end-game" player, I still here people talking about NM resistances. What if Summoners could bridge the gaps for player to land normal debuffs and spells?

Spirits is only a name for them, they're elementals. Avatars have the same -50% PDT as spirits, spirits can also "melee", aswell as Avatars, leaving them just as vunerable to physical damage.

With BP timers in the state they are, it was unfortunately the only way we could go. Unless they add these effects to the Rages we use to DD, they're never gonna be used. Take Fenrir as an example he gets Blind and a potent paralyze effect, but they share a timer with Eclipse Bite so they'll never see the light of day past lvl65.

[Korpg]

Yeah and we get them all in one chunk(because there's no damage hierarchy in them), If Avatars got them like BLM, it would take 20 levels(tier IIs) to get them all, and we wouldn't start getting the Tier IVs until 68. Giving them to use in two chunks at lvl10 and lvl60 gave SE the ability to skip Tiers I & III, while keeping with their "we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited." standpoint, I know it's flawed as far as Physical pacts are concerned, but we're discussing nukes and until Abyssea(Atma of the Beyond), Avatars were equal as to which 75 Pacts are picked.

Up until you added merits to specific blood pacts. 3/5 Heavenly Strike will always do better unresisted damage than 1/5 Thunderstorm, but technically, we still choose avatars based on the weakest element resist on the mob, or at least smart summoners do. Any SMN who uses Geocrush on Dragua needs to be taken out back and shot.

[Razushu]

Up until you added merits to specific blood pacts. 3/5 Heavenly Strike will always do better unresisted damage than 1/5 Thunderstorm, but technically, we still choose avatars based on the weakest element resist on the mob, or at least smart summoners do. Any SMN who uses Geocrush on Dragua needs to be taken out back and shot.

Yeah but thats my point aside from which you choose to merit higher, they are all equal. I have 5/5 Heavenly Strike and 1/5 in the others, just because Shiva benefits from Beyond more, and I just use the appropriate element of the mob otherwise. Was doing Mictlantecuhtli last night Meteor Strike 1/5 was doing 1k~1.5k(TP Variance).

TBH what I would love to see is a change in our Group 2 merits, make it so Level 1 unlocks the Pact and subsequent levels add a debuff to the Pact like an added effect that increases in potency each merit.