Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

[Laphine]

At least they are not contradicting themselves by giving everyone hate reset i guess. (Making our hate management quality even more questionable)

[FrankReynolds]

I'm pretty sure that all the developers left to go do something else. Then they gave some Secretary or intern a copy of the original game guide and said:

" Here. Read this manual to find out what the games about.... your promoted to forum admin now. Answer some questions every once in a while just to make it look like someone is still working on the game. We'll be out playing golf if you need us. Oh by the way. Don't tell them anything about the billing. We're trying to get people to quit playing so that we can get transferred to a new department. "

[Phen]

Hey Camate many of the other forums have gotten very specific feed back as to what their abilities will do but we got vague things or not gonna happens. Can we get something specific over here?

[Melphina]

Quote Originally Posted by Babekeke View Post
Anyone read the comments on RNG updates thread?



Because Sidewinder>barrage>sidewinder (or other WS, I'm not too familiar with RNG WS anymore) followed by Collaborator will make it so easy for the NIN to hold hate for the rest of the fight, even if you're not fighting mobs where hate is @ cap almost immediately.

How far off the mark the Devs really are... astounds me.
LOL. You beat me too it!!! But I responded there.

I really can't believe they actually think this. I know we all joke about it, but it would appear that they REALLY do not have a clue about THF abilities or gameplay.

I believe the issue is not that the devs lack understanding of thf abilities so much as they don't understand the gameplay itself. The devs appear to be under the impression that a once a minute 25% hate stolen from one person, or 50% stolen once every 5 minutes coupled with trick attack weaponskills is all someone needs to control hate.

I do not believe the devs realize how quickly enmity is generated when people go off the wall and zerg trash mobs, or how when the paladins are capped on enmity everyone elses levels are largely irrelevant because anything less than the cap means the mob will still be on the paladin. They know people use third eye and utsusemi, but they appear to be of the mindset that we still use 2004 mechanics where we have a dedicated tank, a support to cure that tank, and a bunch of melees who dont wanna get hit. Instead the norm is that people just attack stuff and let mages cure them when they get hurt so that the mob dies too fast for it to do any real damage. Dead mobs don't retaliate no matter how squishy their target is.

I don't joke at all when I say this. I think the devs are completely out of touch with today's gameplay. They created the content but they forgot that everything interacts at once, and they are oblivious to the fact that people don't want to wait to kill mobs 1 at a time. If people can pull five mobs and have a BLM sleep them and -GA them to death they will. If they can kill stuff and take heavy damage but not die.... and a mage can cure them afterwards.... they will. If they can kill a HNM with their DD going balls to the wall after the paladins have spent 5 minutes capping hate.... they willo, and those two paladins will hold the mobs attention the whole time. If somebody is an idiot and pulls hate they just reraise and go right back to town. The devs seem to be of a mindset that players value their HP pools and will take all possible measures to avoid getting KOd under any circumstances... and that just is not the case (as is evident by the fact that people zombied stuff since the Kirin era. Weakened melees were always bum rushing Kirin to get that meditated steel cyclone in to prove their worth and taking a stone IV to the face be damned,... they are GOING to attack..... and they did.

I really believe the devs have no clue how players use the abilities they were given, and they have absolutely no understanding of the hate cycle in a REAL TIME environment. The hate algorithms may look fancy on paper, but in a world where you zerg trash mobs to kill them NOW and heavy tank important stuff they are almost entirely irrelevant.

[Babekeke]

It probably all works out fine when there's 18 of you in a room with a set plan and you can shout to each other what to do, then punch them in the face if they mess up. Unfortunately, only the Devs get this luxury.

[Insaniac]

It probably all works out fine when there's 18 of you in a room with a set plan and you can shout to each other what to do, then punch them in the face if they mess up. Unfortunately, only the Devs get this luxury.

That's something I never thought about. I would hope they take that into account when designing content but just the fact that they are all on the same page, when it comes to testing, would skew the results quite a bit. Maybe when the test server comes up they will really start working with us on making things more functional for real play.

[Phen]

Hey lets ask what their vision for hate is:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...088#post160088

[Smush]

Just moving this post here seems like its more likely for the devs to see it here sry for spam XD

"Vision
Stealthy pickpockets that duck and weave to land sneak attacks while keeping party enmity under control from the shadows.

We wish to see thieves further develop the cunning they are so aptly known for by providing them with even more means of manipulating enmity and continuing to fatten the party's coffers.


Example Adjustments

Adding a new ability that complements Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

Raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter.

Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party."

This vision you have does not make the thf players happy at all most thf that love and take pride in the job are extremely hurt and are in rage over this.

Not the whole vision is bad Adding a ability that complments are main two abilities is great, but raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter us almost next to useless endgame and would help thf get used in HNM or endgame right now.


Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party if implement in a good way could be a big help.

Ways to make thf's happy and make the job better in endgame and hnms

1st being a melee job of course we would want to bring decent dmg to the table right now on mobs with high def or too high eva unless we sub way which is a good way to fix that problam are dmg is horrable now if we had a increase in dmg base of are daggers a bit better of a crit rate like thfs in other FF a A+ in dagger and at least Dual wield 4 by 99

Ways to implement this:

A trait that makes Dagger dmg base rise with skill like H2H

If not increse the dual wield we have add a trait to lower are dagger delay like mnks martial arts

A trait that increases are crit hit rate by 1% every 10 lvls start at 10 and one last at around 95 ~ 99 for a total of 10% since crits would help us make up for att we doing have from being 1handers

Since we are DoT melee jobs that attack alot like mnk nin and dnc. PLEASE GIVE US subtle blow all other DoT jobs have it but thf and pup ppl dont like us to melee hnms because of it and even SB 3 would be much help.

The attack and acc probalm can be fix by just subing war which is how i think you guys intended it to be when adding dual wield so with more dual wield or dagger delay trait it would make /war better sure we give up are def from sub nin but thats a fair price to increase are dmg which most hnms wipe shadows anyways and we dont really tank that much unless low man outside abyssea and we have A+ eva and evasion bonus i think we can manage.

last thing Enmity managment.

Its almost useless atm because most tanks cap hate so fast and DD or blm's dont pull it because they control there selfs on hnm's. if we had a few abilities to give DD's and blm a window to where they could go all out and be safe it would make thf more wanted for enmity control

Like making hide lose all enmity we have so we could accomplice then drop all the hate away

A ability that makes next trick attack move all hate to the person in front so we could collabarate a DD or mage and move hate to tank.

A ability that allows Enmity to stay locked at capped at current lvl so that we can use with conspriter to give a DD party subtle blow and accaracy and keep hate off them for 1min to zerg the last 20% of a hnm's hp.

Maybe some of the ideas i have are bad and over powering. Maybe some are good and just what the job needs. but i know one thing the vision you have set in place is not what thfs want we want to be useful endgame the way that the player base plays today we want to be a more supportive attacking job assassin like job we dont want to be the strogest DD but we want to be good enough to be called a supportive DD.

Making Collaborator and Accomplice different timers.

Please listen to your players and try to make us happy because right now the ppl who love thf like myself are not so.

[Smush]

Well SE i dont know who came up with this excuse but its bogus... ill explain

First off we have been wanted/needed Subtle blow of are own way before we even had this now style of th upgrading so thats not a excuse.

2nd TH raises the % so low ppl wont really care once we have 6-8 so they wont really want us to melee HNMs with really bad TP moves and AoEs since we can feed alot of TP
which would limit us to in and out SA TA for more that can be melee'd freely that is very boring when we look at other melee jobs like mnk nin and dnc being able to melee because they dont make the mob go nuts then they melee it.

It seems we are otw to getting DWIII so /war will be the DD sub of choice if we not tanking or need shadows so we will lose the little subtle blow we do get from are sub en-th is not a justified way to not give us subtle blow when jobs like dnc have things they get from meleeing such as haste somba and the ablitity to cure very good front line and they still get subtle blow.

So please SE rethink this no thf wants to be the guy who puts th on the mob and basicly have free time to go afk we want to be in the fight we want to have a effect of the whole fight not just the end where ppl start lotting stuff... this is the worse role and most boring job you can give a ffxi player it takes NO SKILL AT ALL a mule could do it and alot of mules do i seen you posted on the sam update about not giving them a trait ability that auto stuns next TP move because it lacks the need of skill well right now in most players and ls leaders eyes the role of thf lacks skill because we are only there for th which takes no skill at all just tho a boomarange at the mob yea we could go in and out and sa and ta but that takes very little skill and the proc rate gets so low and has such alow effect once your at a high lvl like th 7-8 its almost a waist of time.
We should be able to control enmity like you want us to but its almost no need ppl know how to control there enmity gain a good tank will cap there enmity in a short time with no help from us so in order for us to be so call masters of enmity we need more hate control abilities.

I hope SE reads this and think about real ways to help our job not.... upgrade Steal and give us nothing to steal because there afriad rtms might STEAL IT like really....

[Laphine]

I actually don't even mind not having subtle blow because we have TH. The problem is not having anything at all because we have TH lol.