Summoner ~ Updating Avatars & Elemental Spirits. Blood pacts, wards, and spell list.

[Malamasala]

The more accurate way to read it would be, why buff pets no one uses, when we already have better pets that could do with a buff.

But the opposite also applies. Why buff pets we use, since we apparently use them because they are good enough. If they weren't good enough to be used, then we wouldn't use them, see spirits. Which in the end gives us the following suggestions for SE:

1) Do not update spirits. They are useless.
2) Do not update avatars. They are already useful.

That is if you give a consistent argument, instead of a biased one regarding which pet type you like the most.

If the only reason people want them buffed is because they exist(which is silly, we don't need them we already have much better pets), then I 'd suggest we get rid of them all together and change Elemental Siphon to Astral Siphon.

I agree with you that there are only two options for SE. Fix spirits, or remove spirits. Nothing is worse than keeping defunct code for years just to annoy the player base. I would gladly accept the removal of spirits, since it at least shows SE cares about cleaning the job up.

[Razushu]

But the opposite also applies. Why buff pets we use, since we apparently use them because they are good enough. If they weren't good enough to be used, then we wouldn't use them, see spirits. Which in the end gives us the following suggestions for SE:

1) Do not update spirits. They are useless.
2) Do not update avatars. They are already useful.

That is if you give a consistent argument, instead of a biased one regarding which pet type you like the most.



I agree with you that there are only two options for SE. Fix spirits, or remove spirits. Nothing is worse than keeping defunct code for years just to annoy the player base. I would gladly accept the removal of spirits, since it at least shows SE cares about cleaning the job up.

Spirits are fine though, they have a use. I never said our avatars are fine, they can still use a buff. My point is we have 2 sets of pets avatars and spirits, one set for high level general use, and the other for low level(20-) until we get the avatars and for Elemental Siphon.

One set are far superior to the others but could still use some attention(ex. buff potency and DPS boost). The other since combat roles are filled by the superior set was given an MP management ability to give them use. Honestly spirits are fine they see use once every five minutes.

I said SE should get rid of them, because it would stop people asking for buffs to them. You don't see DRGs complaining about they're less used swords or clubs. What would be the point in removing spirits other than people would stop complaining about them, they find niche uses in game. Siphon and the occasional emergency pet more than make they're existence worth it.

I'm not biased on which group of pets I prefer, Avatars are just more useful. We have 9(11 soon) avatars that fulfill any need that pops up in a fight, including nuking. What would be the point of buffing the spirits to fill a role already filled, especially when the avatars need a boost anyway. The only argument for spirit buffing seems to be, I have them so I wanna use them. It's pointless, they could "fix" spirits, but where would that leave us? In the exact same place, except we now have more pets to do the same thing our magic pacts do.

[Sasaraixx]

Razushu again makes a very good point. Every job has spells, WS, abilities that they eventually grow out of. Spirits played a role for us in the early levels and have been completely eclipsed by avatars. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with it. I just have an irrational desire to see my ice spirit cast big nukes. There really is no need for it and as we both have said, our avatars need real work.

I use my spirits for elemental siphon, to get a monster off me quickly and to play around with proc'ing grellow occasionally in Abyssea. That's far more attention than Ifrit or Diabolos have gotten from me in the past year.

[Covenant]

I can tell you exactly why people HATE spirits...it's simple really, No "control", "normally" more mp expensive than avatars(yes Bloodpacts cost mp), and spell casting cycles and finally spirits being "locked" intolvl 75 when even our NPC fellow have broken "cap".

I originally offered an update from lvl 1-99 for avatars as well as spirits. This is quite hard for max level summoner to see being blinded by their powers and the many choices they have NOW. What i didn't want to suggest as with nearly every single thread is boosting melee damage.

Every job thread wants more melee and more haste. Period. Any suggestion having to do with balance and party play is met with negative remarks. Yes, I'll admit that as we "progress" it's natural for certain abilties to be forgotten. I'd just like to remind summoner that while avatars only had 2 tiers of nukes(II and IV) PRe-75, a spirit did have access to all lvl appropriate spells of their element.
Unfortuntely, many Summoners still have that idea of the "solo" summoner lvln. Were we weren't picked for parties and usually our avatars did 99%of the job.
I'm in agreement, to a degree....let SE keep pushing Bloodpacts and bloodwards, yet that can make a minimum change to spirits to allow more utilization(namely def and decrease delay. Or, increased nuking).


Plus, I just really, really want those 7? extra NM elementals(chaos, magic sludge, aby-elementals and ?).

[Covenant]

By the way, I posted on wkik an idea that much like campaign general NPC. That players could concievably given multiple elementals(max 3). All associate costs and abilties remain the same. Each additional elemental could be summoned based on a 99/3 level formula.

For example, lvl 1-33 (1) spirit, 33-66. (2) spirits, and finally lvl 66-99 (3) spirits. Perhaps to balance, weaken them slightly say -25%. That way a little fairer. Of course any % are debatable.

I'm also all for a strict (1)avatar/(1)spirit summoning cycle at the increase mp cost, of course. That is having one of each "out" at a given time.

[Korpg]

Plus, I just really, really want those 7? extra NM elementals(chaos, magic sludge, aby-elementals and ?).

yeah....Chaos Elemental and Magic Sludge are just Dark Elementals....and we already have those.

And unless the 4 dual elemental spirits actually give out a lot more MP for Siphon, I don't see those as being worth it (except for the extremely RARE times where it is one type of weather on another type of day (dark weather on earthday, fire weather on lightday, and so on).

[Covenant]

@KORPG, I didnt even think of the day/weather combo nice catch.

I mention chaos and sludge because I think they had different behavior than regular elemental. Namely, one has a low delay striking more often and the other casted more spells faster and slow melee. Or something like that. I'd have to reread all the NM descriptions.

Having dual nature NM elementals just seem cools with versatility. I'll admit I have next to zero experience actually fighting these types so I'm not used to their behaviors at all. In general do they seem to cast more Nukes? Or is it the same behaviors as other regular spirits. I only mention this cause seems like a mob elemental always leads an attack with an AM when they're aggrod?

[Sasaraixx]

Every job thread wants more melee and more haste. Period. Any suggestion having to do with balance and party play is met with negative remarks.

Most people do want more melee damage and haste. That's because it is needed at the moment. Part of the reason we need the increase is for balance. (Our DOT is low.) I am all for buffs to other areas and every thread I have ever made suggestions in has included buffs to our enhancing side. I just personally didn't believe that your suggestions would adequately address the issue and/or make us more desired for party play. That is just my opinion and we can of course agree to disagree. I would like to see tweaks to avatar's favor, buffs to our ward pacts and having a 3rd blood pact category to allow more usage of enfeebles and enhancing abilities. (I also wouldn't mind Shiva and Levi getting nice aoe magical and physical rage pacts either, hehe) Please don't misunderstand. I am all for having us be a well rounded, versatile job.

And the Abyssea elementals do look pretty awesome. I wouldn't turn my nose up at them They're great to look at at least, hehe.

[Covenant]

Not to keep beating the "spirit" seashores, but was going over the NM elementals...their descriptions and thought of a couple ideas.

The VNM tier 1 elementals featured an interesting concept. Rather than being strictly "elemental" they all see to have a tier or two in "fast cast" trait and feature a spell list based on their jobs. For example,

[u]www.wiki.ffxicyclodeia.org/wiku/Beorht.com[u/]
Beorht job is WHM/RDM and is able to cast haste, blink, dia II, holy, banishaga III, stoneskin, regen, and diaga II?

All the other job/sub job VNM elementals are broken down this way having access to any job spells of appropriate levels despite being specific elemental types.

The NM Elemental "Chaos Elemental" has a high fast cast rate, despite having a "slow" cast cycle.

The NM Elemental "Magic Sludge" is resistant to both magical and physical damage. Can instant cast both sleepga and sleepaga II. Has high speed and "hits slightly harder than normal"

The NM Elemental "Polevik" has a "potent fast cast" also.

Then there are the campaign NM elemental types...

The Shadowfang Void's all have access to BIO III, dispelaga, dreadspikes, sleepaga II.
The Vee Qiqa's Elemental (5) all types, have access to all spells(75) even merited ones.
The Vee seju's Elementals (2) have fast cast, high double/triple attack rates.
The Yuu Mjuu's Elementals (3) have Banishaga III and Fire IV.

So SE has already established(coded) certain elementals with altered behaviors and access to "non-player" spell list.
That being said, I can imagine leaving the regular spirits "alone" and creating a second tier of Spirits either based off of the VNM and NM behavior...
...OR, creating a new series of "pacts" that mimic the campaign general NM ELementals. Namely, multiple pets with increase strength(though not on the same exact level)...
...OR, creating a new series of Tier 2 spirits as I've already stated. Increased melee speed(think double/triple attack)/damage down down (think Paladin's Sentinel) and/or increased spell range(lvl 75-99)...
...OR, allowing the Abyssean Hybrid-Elementals to drop "pacts". Or create another BCNM in Abyssean-Paradox filled with Hybrud-elemental fights that drop it.


No matter which approach if any, imagine new spirits have access to such things as ~aga IV's, or AM~aga, or AM III. Would Summoners then think these spirits completely useless?

[Malamasala]

I'm not biased on which group of pets I prefer, Avatars are just more useful. We have 9(11 soon) avatars that fulfill any need that pops up in a fight, including nuking. What would be the point of buffing the spirits to fill a role already filled, especially when the avatars need a boost anyway. The only argument for spirit buffing seems to be, I have them so I wanna use them. It's pointless, they could "fix" spirits, but where would that leave us? In the exact same place, except we now have more pets to do the same thing our magic pacts do.

You are as biased as one can be. Let me explain why.

For a SMN/WHM healer and support role, spirits are the best. Instead of soaking your MP into pacts, you'll just send a small amount of perpetuation to the spirits while they either help you cure or deal some additional damage. Meanwhile you have more MP to spend on healing and -na-ing the alliance.

So any Summoner who plays a support healing role, should be thrilled at spirit updates. Unless they are biased at their usual playstyle and haven't put any testing into spirits over the years.

I've tested this style on ix.drk fights, and apart from spirits being idiots constantly casting DoT spells, it worked better than any other thing a SMN could do in the fight. Which of course just translates to "It was better to use 75 pacts since spirits are idiots", if you want to be biased on what works and what doesn't.

In short, spirits WOULD be more useful than avatars for certain support roles, and it is those exact roles you enjoy to play. Even so you diss spirit fixes, even though it is the best thing that could happen to you, out of ignorance.