New SMN JA "Possession" Empowering the "Melee SMN"

[Alhanelem]

What I honestly think about this idea:

Bad to get rid of the avatars completely. Now if it did something else, like reduce the cooldown of BP to x2, to compensate for how powerful the SMN has become...

Still don't like SMN melee but if the public wants it that badly, it's SE's choice to weigh the options.

I looked at the idea as a modal ability, where you can either summon the avatar as a pet as normal, or if this ability is active, you take control of and become the avatar itself.

Either way, I feel summoner needs something to help it live up to its reputation of power. I don't mean OVERpowered, but right now, in terms of inflicting any kind of damage, SMN is not very capable, no matter how you try to do it. It was pointed out that the master can substantially outdamage its pet (The total is still abysmal, of course, but still). This is something that should be rectified in one way or another. Most people, I'm sure, would like to see the avatars be stronger, or some kind of modal ability like avatar's favor that "channels the avatar's power towards special attacks" or something, perhaps disabling Wards to give a damage boost and faster recast to Rages or something. I don't know, just throwing something out there.

SE's implied ability of paying more MP for faster blood pacts seems like a start, but it would have to be a substantial BP delay reduction for it to be worth having at all. The OP's idea I find interesting, but is at odds with most people's perception of what the job is "supposed" to be. You may like summoner as it is for the things it does that are special, e.g. perfect defense, but I would prefer the job be known for a bit more than that. Why settle for good enough when you can always have more?

[Leonlionheart]

I'm not proving anything. I'm being compared to a SMN/RDM who does nothing but maybe casts Cure 3 every once and a while. It's no contest, which is why I don't allow you to compete.

If you think /RDM mp recovery is that good, replace all your perp gear with gear that enhances your pet's damage:

Staff: Soulscourge
Head: Haste 5%
Neck: Regain or Attack (yeah, try full-timing sac torque lol)
Body: Crit: 4%
Hands: Accuracy, 2 choices
Waste: Attack
Legs: Accuracy
Feet: Attack

Until someone manages this setup, all SMN have MP issues.

I'd macro it in to blood pacts, like I macro avatar MAB into blood pacts. I wouldn't full time it. It's not helping enough to full time anyway, except for the head slot (which I could easily keep +mp by losing the 1 refresh I actually have on head slot lol). Avatar physical attacks are incredibly weak in comparison to real DD physical attacks.

[Leonlionheart]

I looked at the idea as a modal ability, where you can either summon the avatar as a pet as normal, or if this ability is active, you take control of and become the avatar itself.

Either way, I feel summoner needs something to help it live up to its reputation of power. I don't mean OVERpowered, but right now, in terms of inflicting any kind of damage, SMN is not very capable, no matter how you try to do it. It was pointed out that the master can substantially outdamage its pet (The total is still abysmal, of course, but still). This is something that should be rectified in one way or another. Most people, I'm sure, would like to see the avatars be stronger, or some kind of modal ability like avatar's favor that "channels the avatar's power towards special attacks" or something, perhaps disabling Wards to give a damage boost and faster recast to Rages or something. I don't know, just throwing something out there.

SE's implied ability of paying more MP for faster blood pacts seems like a start, but it would have to be a substantial BP delay reduction for it to be worth having at all. The OP's idea I find interesting, but is at odds with most people's perception of what the job is "supposed" to be. You may like summoner as it is for the things it does that are special, e.g. perfect defense, but I would prefer the job be known for a bit more than that. Why settle for good enough when you can always have more?

Honestly I don't understand SE's tip-toe approach to SMN. From 75-90 SMN has gotten what, some niche blood pacts and crap tons of perp- gear? A set bonus that barely ever works, and shows lesser numbers than a BLM using a similar set bonus.

Why do they think the job is so powerful that they can't give Avatars at least the power of a PUP automaton? I don't think anyone would get pissed if Shiva would just start casting Blizzard IV by herself sometime instead of wasting a Blood pact: Rage on it. I mean using spells form avatars was never very good in the first place.

Why can't Avatar's get Haste? And why can't BP be affected by fast cast gear or haste?

Black Magic: Haste affects recasts
White Magic: Haste affects recasts
Physical Weapon Skills: Haste affects WS frequency

SMN: Haste does nothing
RNG: Haste does nothing
COR: Haste does nothing

Considering it's the strongest stat in the game, every job that DOESNT have it gets completely sidelined when comparing them to other jobs that are affected by haste.

Does SE not realize how powerful haste is, that not giving it to certain jobs completely undermines them?

The only fix, other than having it affect said jobs/abilities, is to scale damage to make up for the lack of haste. (Or in RNG and COR's case, make a totally new stat particularly for Ranged Attacks.) SMN get's -bp in gear, but let's face it. 15 is 25% of 60, same as 25% haste in gear. However when you add the spells, Haste, March, or the abilities Hasso, Desperate Blows, and Haste Samba, it significantly increases the power (exponentially even) of damage.

80% of 60(BP timer) is 48, meaning for a SMN to even compare to a DD at capped Haste the recast on Blood Pacts should be Twelve seconds. (Even still, the maximum time for a Ukon WAR to WS is 10 seconds at capped haste, assuming 6hit build, with DA, TA, and retaliation it gets lowered to as little as 2 seconds (WS after delay).

Finally, SMN should not need to Melee to compare to other jobs. Sure, it can melee, but it shouldn't be potent enough that the Avatar loses out on being SMN's most powerful aspect just because some special snowflake thinks he can do damage with his staff.

[Malamasala]

Avatar physical attacks are incredibly weak in comparison to real DD physical attacks.

Not really. Or well, it hasn't always been that way. I once noticed vs Cerberus that my avatar was hitting for 35 and the DRK was hitting for 40. Then the BRD came along and DRK shoot up to 100-120 per swing. Avatars on HNM are pretty much on par with melee jobs, before buffs.

And that is really the problem. Game perfectly balanced without BRDs and CORs, then 110% in favor of melee when you apply these jobs to parties. We'd have a lot less issues if BRD and COR was never added, but it is a pretty harsh thing to say.

[Malamasala]

Honestly I don't understand SE's tip-toe approach to SMN. From 75-90 SMN has gotten what, some niche blood pacts and crap tons of perp- gear? A set bonus that barely ever works, and shows lesser numbers than a BLM using a similar set bonus.

Why do they think the job is so powerful that they can't give Avatars at least the power of a PUP automaton? I don't think anyone would get pissed if Shiva would just start casting Blizzard IV by herself sometime instead of wasting a Blood pact: Rage on it. I mean using spells form avatars was never very good in the first place.

Why can't Avatar's get Haste? And why can't BP be affected by fast cast gear or haste?

Black Magic: Haste affects recasts
White Magic: Haste affects recasts
Physical Weapon Skills: Haste affects WS frequency

SMN: Haste does nothing
RNG: Haste does nothing
COR: Haste does nothing

Considering it's the strongest stat in the game, every job that DOESNT have it gets completely sidelined when comparing them to other jobs that are affected by haste.

Does SE not realize how powerful haste is, that not giving it to certain jobs completely undermines them?

The only fix, other than having it affect said jobs/abilities, is to scale damage to make up for the lack of haste. (Or in RNG and COR's case, make a totally new stat particularly for Ranged Attacks.) SMN get's -bp in gear, but let's face it. 15 is 25% of 60, same as 25% haste in gear. However when you add the spells, Haste, March, or the abilities Hasso, Desperate Blows, and Haste Samba, it significantly increases the power (exponentially even) of damage.

80% of 60(BP timer) is 48, meaning for a SMN to even compare to a DD at capped Haste the recast on Blood Pacts should be Twelve seconds. (Even still, the maximum time for a Ukon WAR to WS is 10 seconds at capped haste, assuming 6hit build, with DA, TA, and retaliation it gets lowered to as little as 2 seconds (WS after delay).

Finally, SMN should not need to Melee to compare to other jobs. Sure, it can melee, but it shouldn't be potent enough that the Avatar loses out on being SMN's most powerful aspect just because some special snowflake thinks he can do damage with his staff.

I don't think you've ever made this much sense before. Glad to see that we are quite a lot on the same page, apart from SMN melee.

[Leonlionheart]

Not really. Or well, it hasn't always been that way. I once noticed vs Cerberus that my avatar was hitting for 35 and the DRK was hitting for 40. Then the BRD came along and DRK shoot up to 100-120 per swing. Avatars on HNM are pretty much on par with melee jobs, before buffs.

And that is really the problem. Game perfectly balanced without BRDs and CORs, then 110% in favor of melee when you apply these jobs to parties. We'd have a lot less issues if BRD and COR was never added, but it is a pretty harsh thing to say.

pDIF is pretty much the deciding factor on high level NMs. That and accuracy.

The fact that avatars in no way get buffs to either of this without using a specific avatar for long periods of time is proof.

Avatar's Favor is trying to push for long-time usage of a single avatar; why force it into gimping damage? I personally don't use it cause 1) My SMN is never in the melee party, and Diabolos sucks for actual damage (and so does Shiva if you're going to eat the -20 MAB and have Shiva float around the BLM), and 2) I use magical blood pacts if I'm on SMN, which take a HUGE hit in potency. The physical variant is there, as in there is attack- because of Avatar's Favor, but it's harder to see. (I would use it, however, if Ramuh got a Crit WS!)

I wouldn't care if Avatar's Favor INCREASED perp cost. I just don't like losing out on damage, on a job that is gasping for it in the first place.

[Korpg]

Korpg, thank you for again thinking you deserve to be heard by me. You are wrong.

Yet...you responded to me....hmm.

Hey guys! I'm going to ignore Dallas by responding to him now!

[Korpg]

I swing a 98 base damage staff for up to 900 damage on a normal hit in Abyssea (550 outside). I get back 1500-2000 MP with my WS. No one but a bunch of trolls on a forum are laughing.

I swing a 124 Base damage Great Axe for up to 1400 on a normal hit in Abyssea (1100 outside). I can do up to 8k damage with my WS. And none of that damage is ODD either. When I finish my Ukon, I can swing up to 4500 on a normal hit in Abyssea (don't know outside yet). I can do 11k WSs normally, possibly getting higher than that. I already have a 5 hit/25% haste build for my Ukon for TP (thanks Leon for your help). And I'm not thinking that I can do something that my job doesn't allow me to (as in, you know, main healing, or nuking, or stuff like that).

[Korpg]

JA delay is 1 second, like all JA. I don't have a lot of those compared to most melee.

Yes, perpetuation. 23% in Haste gear isn't cheap. Avatar's melee damage is icing on the cake. Putting the avatar away has the following negative effects:

1) loss in at least 10 seconds per minute just casting the avatar (thanks for reminding me... 15 seconds with Hasso)
2) loss in time aligning the avatar for buffs (a meleeing avatar is in range)
3) loss of hate generated by BPs (very important solo and backup tanking)
4) loss of pettp gained, lower cures, lower merit pacts
5) loss of buffs on avatar (only a few, but they help)
6) loss of damage from melee

There are a LOT of reasons to keep the avatar out. I have unlimited MP, so I keep the avatar out.

Number 3 is proof positive that Dallas doesn't use SMN, at least in a party situation. If his avatar is tanking, or even backup tanking, then either his tanks REALLY suck or he is full of...you know.

[Korpg]

I'm not proving anything. I'm being compared to a SMN/RDM who does nothing but maybe casts Cure 3 every once and a while. It's no contest, which is why I don't allow you to compete.

If you think /RDM mp recovery is that good, replace all your perp gear with gear that enhances your pet's damage:

Staff: Soulscourge
Head: Haste 5%
Neck: Regain or Attack (yeah, try full-timing sac torque lol)
Body: Crit: 4%
Hands: Accuracy, 2 choices
Waste: Attack
Legs: Accuracy
Feet: Attack

Until someone manages this setup, all SMN have MP issues.

That SMN/RDM is helping out the party a lot more than swinging a staff to keep an avatar out does.

Bolded: Hence, the reason why you need to swing a staff. Love to see you keep your avatar out outside of abyssea....oh wait.

Also: Gear, man, you really have no clue what a SMN is. Any/everyone who is a SMN can name off the gear you just put on there by name. Why can't you?

Plus: You mentioned that you solo stuff. What exactly have you soloed? Bubbly Bernie doesn't count.

Edit: 4 posts in a row! Sorry about that guys!