ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

[MarkovChain]

Atomic was the one going around saying he had parses and testing with him and his friend using empy and relic that proved empy was better than relic.

How is it so wrong to ask for Atomic to actually show these parses he says he did?

It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

[MarkovChain]

From my Iwish himself did not have the means to test, He only had his theoretical data, which is usually good,

Do you have an empy ? I don't think you do. The day you get a level 85 one it's obvious that the damage nearly double instantaneously thanks to the WS, and the aftermath makes it godly. You don't have that on relic since they are just evolutions from level 75 weapon with slight boost here and there. Common sense tells you why they are much better. Plus on some relic the WS itself was already bad at 75 so you have a weapon that has a DPS like 20% better than a normal weapon with a WS that may be 25% better than a WS that was bad at 75. In the end you can't beat a weapon that nearly doubles damage. Common sense tells you that it is necessarily wrong.

[Karbuncle]

Do you have an empy ? I don't think you do. The day you get a level 85 one it's obvious that the damage nearly double instantaneously thanks to the WS, and the aftermath makes it godly. You don't have that on relic since they are just evoutions from level 75 weapon with slight boost here and there. Common sense tells you why they are much better. Plus on some relic the WS itself was already bad at 75 so you have a weapon that has a DPS like 20% better than a normal weapon with a WS that may be 25% better than a WS that was bad at 75. In the end you can't beat a weapon that nearly doubles damage. Common sense tells you that it is necessarily wrong.

You are corrent in that no, I do not own an Empyrean, I have 5 friends with them, But its irrelevant (i'm working on Mandau), But what is important is that, as you say, Using common sense and to the best of my abilities i will name a few Relics that should outperform their Empyrean counterparts in pure damage at level 90.

1) Mjollnir. (Its still counts!)
2) Amano. (Easier 5-hit)
3) Guttler (Farsha is Meh, 90 Guttler has it on DPS, Rampage > w/e so Aftermath staying up on Farsha gimps your WS damage phase, no?)
4) Mandau (This one i can't say for sure)
5) Gugnir (Rhong... is kinda meh, Gutler, despite shitty WS, is better. Higher DPS, and Its Drakes drakes anyway)
6) Apocalypse (self explanitory)
7) Annihilator

Of course I have no proof, Its all using as you said, Common sense, and in my opinion common sense tells me the above Relic weapons should almost always outperform their Empyrean counterparts, if only for pure damage (Ignoring utility, like say Coronochs almost non-existant enmity gain)

Thats my take on it. Opinions as far as the eye can see.

It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

Ahem. I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying.

But There was no attitude in my post. You are the one giving me some ulterior motive. My post was nothing more than seeking knowledge that one person said they had.

I did not care one bit about the tiff you had going on with Wish, and i was not taking sides. If my posts came off differently, I assure you it was coincidental. I had no ill intent behind it. Just because me and wish both post on BG doesn't mean we have secret PM Sessions on how to p*** people off.

I saw a chance to learn, I took it. From my understanding Wish was not basing his math off of actual in-game tests. Atomic said he was. This was knowledge i wanted. nothing more, nothing less.

do not put words in my mouth or motives in my actions. I assure you, i had nothing but the desire to learn, and from my best understanding, Atomic was the one claiming to have actually gone out and done side-by-side comparison tests thoroughly enough to prove without a doubt Ukon > Bravura.

i wanted this information. Why? I said it in my post on that page.

[Kimble]

It's wrong when you don't ask wish12oz for the same attitude.

Wish didn't say he had actual parses of it because he doesnt have either or knows people with it. He posted his math to back up his claim.

Atomic said he had done in game testing, so lets see it. Wish never said he did.

If someone makes a claim, and then someone else says "You're wrong, i did testing that proves it" and then fails to produce said results, its on them, no one else.

[MarkovChain]

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

[wish12oz]

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

I never said I had either weapon, in fact I said I do NOT have either, I simply posted math saying if all things are equal ragnarok is better, as long as you gain 17.5% damage from the aftermath and acc.

As for your math for the gear sets you use, you probably did something wrong, and I will be looking into it today at some point to find out.

Atomic said they did testing, and that cala was better, I simply asked for information about the testing, and was told 'I wont tell you anything other then cala is better.' And after what happen with that other guy, who claimed to have a relic and turned out to be some random noob with nothing, I am not inclined to believe anon people who won't provide any sort of proof.

EDIT: Currently sitting at 69 carabosse gems and 52 cc lanterns, maybe I should quit being lazy and go do pre trials for masamune and caladbolg =[

[AldielQuetz]

If I recall correctly the goal was to bring the relic and mythic weaponskills up to the same level as the empyreans? I cannot quote it exactly but the general meaning of what the Dev was saying at the time was that they did not want to bring down the empyreans so instead they were going to bring to relic/mythics up to the level of the empyreans. Is this still the plan? I only bring this up because some of us that spent years making these weapons would like to have the WSs be valid top-shelf contenders instead of novelty WSs. I appreciate any time that a Dev could put into responding to this question. Thank you!

[Karbuncle]

You don't have to test anything if you know the mechanics behind them. If you too had a grasp of game mechanic you would agree with him. If you go with a friend, do a couple of ws and one does around 1k while the other does around 2k, you don't really have to provide parse or actual math to disprove the guys that claims that the 1k ws actually averages 2100... When you level a melee job you usually get crappy weapon skills in the process. You try them once or two and if they suck ... well, you don't really have to generate extended parses to see that shoulder tackle is worse than combo.

The best math is still estimates(Very accurate estimates...). *sigh* I Can't explain what I'm trying to say well enough. I mean, When comparing two weapons... Do you assume capped Accuracy. Capped Attack? If not what DEF/EVA Values do you compare them against? I'm not being sarcastic I'm admitting my lack of understanding in this field, Could you enlighten me?

I'm not unaware Parses can also be skewed because of things like not engaging fast enough, dying, etc.

When i asked Rune for those parses, I assumed he had (And asked for, go look) tests on Voidwatch, something i was interested in seeing comparisons in, because that kind of content (not specifically voidwatch, but non-abyssea HNM-level) is what direction FFXI is going in. And i was interested to see how Those two weapons stood up next to eachother.

Again, Yah, Math is lovely, it tells us so much about the game, and they are incredibly accurate, But when i can get my hands on a real parse, I want it, Because for me its easier to understand and its relevant to my interests so to speak.

I don't deny the math, But sometimes having multiple sources of it makes it simpler to understand, For instance, for me, a lot of the math shit is babble, i literally tl;dr and skip to the % Values. Its what i do. Parses are easier for me to understand.

I saw a chance to learn something i found interesting, I took it. It didn't pay off, but i'd take it again no matter who was asking.

And again, I didn't ask Wish, because from what i read, he had no parses, Only the math, I wanted both sources for the reasons i explained above.

If you still don't understand why i did it I'm sorry.

Edit: And really, When it comes to math, don't you ever notice people trying to skew it in their favor? Your math Says Caladbolg, Wish says Ragnarok, Who are the readers suppose to believe? Thats another issue i have with taking shoulder-math at face value.

[MarkovChain]

Do you assume capped Accuracy. Capped Attack? If not what DEF/EVA Values do you compare them against? I'm not being sarcastic I'm admitting my lack of understanding in this field, Could you enlighten me?

Accuracy : I gave the answers. Torcleaver is 40% better if capped 15% if not.
Capped attack : I didn't assume dia 1,2 or 3 so nope. Capped attack is done at 2.2*450=990 attack so we are quite far. You can do a more precise description if you assume beserk available, or dia 3, which is going to decrease the benefits form crit rate and therefore increase the benefits from the empy ODD.
def : I put 30 more def than level 87 mobs which puts them on HnM levels (same as fafnir vs mamoolja at 75). Already gave my attack value and mob's def.

I'm not unaware Parses can also be skewed because of things like not engaging fast enough, dying, etc.

You asked for parses on weapon skill, so irrelevant.

Again, Yah, Math is lovely, it tells us so much about the game, and they are incredibly accurate, But when i can get my hands on a real parse, I want it, Because for me its easier to understand and its relevant to my interests so to speak.

I will just suggest you to get an empyrean first to check what kind of weapons they are. People already parsed their WS numbers to pinpoint the value of WS mods. There is no need to to it again.

Edit: And really, When it comes to math, don't you ever notice people trying to skew it in their favor? Your math Says Caladbolg, Wish says Ragnarok, Who are the readers suppose to believe? Thats another issue i have with taking shoulder-math at face value.

Me. I detailed the math while giving 2 concrete gearsets with therefore actual value for WS mods. He made incorrect assumptions which was assuming you could WS with the same amount of MND/CHR/STR/VIT on any set. It's like comparing WAR and BLM melees and assuming both are capped on accuracy.

[Kimble]

Pchan is almost always wrong and skews numbers to make himself look right so no, I wouldn't trust him with anyting.