Why are we advertized as fighter-mages when White Mages can out-do us?

[Hyrist]

FFXI has too damn many melees already, and RDM should never be retooled to join that crowd. It'd simply fade into irrelevance like the other weaker DDs. RDM is an exceptionally strong mage and it needs to remain on a mage-centric line of development.

I find this statement to be slightly amusing, and confusing at the same time.

You are aware that in the initial design of this game, it was assumed on the part of the developers that all classes would be meleeing, yes?

This is of course back in the game's infancy before the MMO conventions piratically took over the game. But I just find it amusing that someone can say 'there's too much melee!' Given the history, and the simple fact that Melee itself, the act of actively participating in combat, is one of the game's alluring elements.

I'm really not sure what you're basis for 'too much' is, honestly. However, I'm more than in agreement that simply moving to the front lines for damage contribution should not be the sole thing on a Red Mage's mind. This is why I seriously would like a utility for the front line instead of a damage boost. RDM's pushed the damage envelope before, it convinced no one.

It either resulted in the 'you're skewing yer parse!' , 'yer deedees sux!' or 'Yer a mage! Get in da bak linz!' Spats. After so many years I've grown rather bitter and jaded towards people who act that way.

I'd rather RDM be thrown a bone that could be used as a utility in a wider array of situations than monsters that die in 30 seconds or less with a strong DD group.

[Rafien]

I just want to throw out my two cents and say.. The day the finally knocked RDM down a few pegs I was ecstatic. Seeing RDM/NIN destroy everything in the game with ease was a joke. There is no reason for that class, alone, to be next to god when it comes to killing things.

[Hyrist]

I just want to throw out my two cents and say.. The day the finally knocked RDM down a few pegs I was ecstatic. Seeing RDM/NIN destroy everything in the game with ease was a joke. There is no reason for that class, alone, to be next to god when it comes to killing things.

Kind of a bias viewpoint, don't you think?

RDM wasn't the only job destroying things, and honestly, the only thing that changed in that departement is now EVERYTHING destorys things.

Ok, who cares? It took HOURS for Red Mage to be able to do what it did back then, and honestly, it could have been easily fixed by preventing Gravity and Bind from working the way it did.

The only department that RDM was taken down a peg, was hate, which all that did was pin the opportunity to tank on 2 jobs until Abyssea came out. (Dancer has picked up a bit in that department now, which makes me a touch happier.) Honestly I believe that was the wrong stance to take as the game could use more tanks, not fewer. No idea how many viable tanks there are for Voidwatch, which really is the only thing that still fits into the old HNM style play currently.

Oh, and we're falling behind in cures too, but that has absolutely nothing to do with our solo game.

[Eeek]

I find this statement to be slightly amusing, and confusing at the same time.

Of course you find it confusing. RDM is actually a damn good mage when adequately geared and played as a mage, but I suspect all the doom and gloom over RDM's capabilities and future arise from people who can't capably handle the job. I can't say I'm surprised either - I've yet to see a pickup RDM play the job at a passable level.

So ... the answer is to retool RDM into a front-line melee? I'd hate to see such a valuable job decimated and transformed into a Mog House champion alongside the likes of PUP and DRK (and I guarantee you DNC will be right there again once the Abyssea age ends). I'm passionate about THF but I'm well aware that SE hasn't the slightest clue what to do with it and that THF will always be wanted only for TH. THFs like me will push the job to suck as little as possible, but at the end of the day, it still sucks as a DD.

RDM has never pushed the damage envelope and cannot push the damage envelope. That's why you melee RDMs are such an easy target - the vast majority of you endlessly cite decades-old lore in an ever-changing game series, confuse equipment naming conventions as sworn blood-oaths with the melee gods, and lack the cognitive abilities to astutely analyze the state of RDM affairs and somehow believe, if you wish really really hard, that RDM will suddenly strut onto the scene as a top-tier DD.

It'll never happen. It should never happen. Melee RDMs are the WAR/WHMs of old who tried to fool the world into thinking they were just like PLDs.

It either resulted in the 'you're skewing yer parse!' , 'yer deedees sux!' or 'Yer a mage! Get in da bak linz!' Spats. After so many years I've grown rather bitter and jaded towards people who act that way.

"Hey, join the f**king club! I thought I was going to be the starting center fielder for the Boston Red Sox! Life sucks, get a f**king helmet!"

-Denis Leary

[Duelle]

So ... the answer is to retool RDM into a front-line melee? I'd hate to see such a valuable job decimated and transformed into a Mog House champion alongside the likes of PUP and DRK (and I guarantee you DNC will be right there again once the Abyssea age ends).

Valuable? On what level? Spam refresh/cures/haste level? Or more along the lolenfeebles level?

What we've been looking to do is fix an error in implementation that has been allowed to run amock for god knows how many years. Yes, we know you don't care because to you RDM is a cure/haste/refresh bot with a bit of mezzer mixed in an attempt to make the job seem less trite (while failing to do so, might I add).

I'm passionate about THF but I'm well aware that SE hasn't the slightest clue what to do with it and that THF will always be wanted only for TH. THFs like me will push the job to suck as little as possible, but at the end of the day, it still sucks as a DD.

Then make a thread about THF. No one here would stop you from doing so. Hell, I'm very likely to support a thread about THF with discussions on how to make it more than just TH. I know their plight, and would wholeheartedly support discussions on improving their situation. I feel the same way about the guys that want to DD on NIN instead of burn gil away spamming Utsusemi.

RDM has never pushed the damage envelope and cannot push the damage envelope.

State a reason other than the asinine and debunked "no one would play any other job" or "all RDMs would melee only and no one would cover the back line", please.

That's why you melee RDMs are such an easy target - the vast majority of you endlessly cite decades-old lore in an ever-changing game series

That while ever-changing, remain constant in presentation of the jobs. The only real job that ever strayed was, surprise surprise, Paladins. You can thank Agrias Oaks for that one.

confuse equipment naming conventions as sworn blood-oaths with the melee gods

Name and title lend credence to purpose. RDM is proclaimed and sold as a magic fencer, yet is anything but. Why would anyone be surprised to see a collective of people having a problem with this?

and lack the cognitive abilities to astutely analyze the state of RDM affairs and somehow believe, if you wish really really hard, that RDM will suddenly strut onto the scene as a top-tier DD.

If by "RDM affairs" you meant "well, guys, we don't get insta-invites anymore just for having refresh. We'z in trubble!!", we've been aware of that for a while. We also followed the sequels, "spam nukes thanks to all that +MAB in our AF3 set and infinite MP", "well damn, WHMs are wiping the floor with us in heals!", and the latest addition, "After 90 levels of refresh-botting, enter Almace: the Equalizer!". I even have the sidestory "Even being inferior in heals, people still invite RDMs to heal groups because old habits die hard" on VHS.

I'm guessing in your eyes the proper action would be to put up and shut up? Can you blame the melee camp for getting sick of seeing their favorite job being treated like that?

[Jeez]

In recent Abyssea exp parties, I see THF tanking (they never pull), PLD pulling (they can't hold hate), and WHM DDing (even their offensive magic get some use). It seems like the old roles of everything are being flipped upside down, why not RDM too? Come to think of it, I haven't seen very many RDMs these days....

[Hyrist]

Apparently, SE agrees with my assessment of RDM's mages side, seeming they're going to work to adjust HNM (in)vulnerability to many status effects.

We want to see red mages play a more vital role in HNM battles by making enfeebling magic more effective against high-level notorious monsters and their legendary levels of resistance as well as allowing them to better contribute to party member enhancement.

For HNMs, this is what I want to see. Honestly, if Bravery is a single target party member buff we can use, and Quick cast is sufficient enough to cut some of the tedium out of cycles. Then this paired with the better enfeebling mechanics and new enfeebles, than this will make me feel better about that situation.

Again, that does not address the other problem.

As far as people who like to make assumptions about me, whatever. They're only paying half attention to begin with. Why would I care what they think when more than half the time we're in agreement and the other times it doesn't effect THEIR gameplay one bit?

[Eeek]

In recent Abyssea exp parties, I see THF tanking (they never pull), PLD pulling (they can't hold hate), and WHM DDing (even their offensive magic get some use). It seems like the old roles of everything are being flipped upside down, why not RDM too? Come to think of it, I haven't seen very many RDMs these days....

Pickup RDMs are absolutely worthless and shouldn't be invited to anything aside from exp alliances. The RDMs I do see in Abyssea are generally people I know and who handle the job well. Personally, my RDM gets a lot of use as well. Every server's Port Jeuno brigade will swear up and down that I'm wrong, but WHM's upper-echelon healing capacity isn't always required. RDM, while not ideal 100% of the time, works well in lots of situations in Abyssea.

I love my THF to death, but I'm a realist. My THF and my DNC will cease to be capable DDs once the Abyssea age ends. In the 75 days, my THF commonly parsed among the top DDs in easier events like Dynamis and Salvage, but I attribute that to poor competition rather than THF's DD prowess. A properly geared and played DD like WAR or SAM should out-damage a THF in event settings. I always hate admitting that, but it's simply reality.

I like where SE is taking RDM according to the roadmap they posted today. It's asinine that the highest-level NMs often rendered RDM's enfeebling talents useless, and I'm glad that SE might fix that. I'm hoping the new enfeebles will be more along the lines of Paralyze II and Slow II (in terms of usefulness, not necessarily function) and not like Break (which is just another Bind, really). Also, Quick Magic might be interesting if it can be cast on party members.

[Hyrist]

Pickup RDMs are absolutely worthless and shouldn't be invited to anything aside from exp alliances. The RDMs I do see in Abyssea are generally people I know and who handle the job well. Personally, my RDM gets a lot of use as well. Every server's Port Jeuno brigade will swear up and down that I'm wrong, but WHM's upper-echelon healing capacity isn't always required. RDM, while not ideal 100% of the time, works well in lots of situations in Abyssea.

I love my THF to death, but I'm a realist. My THF and my DNC will cease to be capable DDs once the Abyssea age ends. In the 75 days, my THF commonly parsed among the top DDs in easier events like Dynamis and Salvage, but I attribute that to poor competition rather than THF's DD prowess. A properly geared and played DD like WAR or SAM should out-damage a THF in event settings. I always hate admitting that, but it's simply reality.

I like where SE is taking RDM according to the roadmap they posted today. It's asinine that the highest-level NMs often rendered RDM's enfeebling talents useless, and I'm glad that SE might fix that. I'm hoping the new enfeebles will be more along the lines of Paralyze II and Slow II (in terms of usefulness, not necessarily function) and not like Break (which is just another Bind, really). Also, Quick Magic might be interesting if it can be cast on party members.

We agree with Abyssea. This goes doubly if you are often group with other hybrids, such as Dancer. RDM's usefulness in Abyssea is small compared to other more specialized jobs, but it can be a helpful addition.

Quick Magic seems to be a JA ability, primarily, and has been discussed up and down on the boards. The only thing that would make it good is if it is a controlled job ability on a sizable smaller recast time than your typical 5 minute ordeal.

I'm glad enfeebling will be getting it's long-overdue adjustments. It's been a thorn in Red Mage's collective sides for far too long.

But I hope our buffing side isn't being neglected either. Haste and Refresh does not turn someone into a 'demigod'. They're both really nice buffs, granted, but without further support spells to share, I don't think SE's vision matches the reality here. Again, most of our buff spells are self only.

I'd like to see some more development along this vein. I'm not opposed to sharing buffs in situations that call me to the back lines, in fact I wish I had more of them and could distribute the more easily. Quick cast could do that for us if it's frequent enough, so there shouldn't be an issue to widen our variety in buffs a bit.

[cidbahamut]

I'd like to see some more development along this vein. I'm not opposed to sharing buffs in situations that call me to the back lines, in fact I wish I had more of them and could distribute the more easily. Quick cast could do that for us if it's frequent enough, so there shouldn't be an issue to widen our variety in buffs a bit.

You don't have any experience using celerity to keep up a Haste cycle do you? All it does is make the cycle asymmetric and force you to keep burning the JA during every cycle at the same time. A quick magic JA isn't going to really do anything to ease the buff cycle situation. At best it'll be useful for throwing out a timely nuke or a raise.