Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Dallas]

2% is calculated via division. I thought you'd be able to figure that out.

[Korpg]

I'm just wondering how a weapon be the lowest rating be the top 2% in your mind.

[Razushu]

I did redo the math. I redistributed the damage associated with the 3 mandatory buff jobs back to the buff jobs. Counting party contribution, melee SMN falls from 25% under WAR (unbuffeed) to 33% under WAR (buffed). That is an acceptable level, as I also showed that non-emp GA are much worse than 25% under Ukon.

If Hverg is the bottom emp weapon, but still better than anything non-emp, and there are 10,000 emp weapons, Hverg SMN is still in the top 2%.

Except the top 2% is every other job with an empyrean in this case and they all place higher than SMN i'm willing to wager.

Doubling BP speed would be awesome for me, not so much for you.

Doubling BP speed is great for everyone, you're living in a dream world if you think you're magically the only person with unlimited MP.

[Korpg]

Except the top 2% is every other job with an empyrean in this case and they all place higher than SMN i'm willing to wager.

No, too many weapons destroys a Hverg SMN as is. Even with the ODD proc too many jobs can do a lot more damage a lot faster. Not including WSs.

[Razushu]

Please don't confuse boredom with BGers defending their website's honor with "realizing anything." You don't get to where I am, breaking avatar hate or discovering Ducal Guard by following WAR from a website who endorse using SMN in 2-3 fights.

You have nothing to offer me but postcount. SE has definitely noticed this thread and let it continue. If SE agrees with you that SMN is too gimp, they will fix pets. If SE agrees with me, I'll continue improving the job update-by-update. You won't be a part of it.

Good God the day SE listens to someone like you is probably the day that heralds the end of FFXI.

[Greatguardian]

I have like 6 pages to catch up on so bear with me.

1) I really wish people would stop throwing around my spreadsheet numbers as if Summoner Melee actually does more damage than the Avatar when you're not getting what these very same MereeSMNs have called "God-mode buffs that no one realistically gets". When you toss out Red Curry Buns, Haste Samba, Marches, and a perfect TP set, your Garuda is stomping the hell out of you.

2) I laughed at 500 attack and the comeback was "Hey guys I said OUTSIDE of Abyssea okay?". 500 Attack including food is absolutely pathetic even outside Abyssea. That was pretty funny.

3) Dallas now claims to have made / be making significant contributions to the Summoner class? When did this happen? All I've seen from him is theorycrafting with absolutely no justification, either in the form of theoretical math, or parses, or gear sets, or anything beyond "I do it and it's good and you're all gimp for not doing it". Post some specifics that you didn't make up on the fly, and that other people can replicate.

4) Hvergelmir SMN is absolutely not a stronger DD than good, non-EMP "normal DD"s. You're delusional. Though, comparing your absolute best to the world's absolute worst is a tried and proven strategy for people who suck too much to handle a real test. I believe it was Galka who mentioned being able to outparse a full perle gimp Dark Knight in Abyssea earlier in the thread. That's just not pretty.

5) This thread is open because no one wants to read this crapfest. I'm sure it'll meet a swift lock whenever someone gets around to reporting some personal attacks or something. If someone's not interested in participating, though, they're welcome to just stop posting in this thread.

[Alhanelem]

4) Hvergelmir SMN is absolutely not a stronger DD than good, non-EMP

I fully agree with this; It IS, however, a stronger DD than a good, non-EMP SMN. There is of course a price for any extra damage, and that price is some amount of risk, depending on your targets. If you can manage that risk, then you can make use of it to speed up soloing and some not-too-difficult NMs. Most SMNs I know soloing trash mobs (e.g. normal mobs conning a low T or less) will melee because they know they can do it safely against an avatar that's just used a strong blood pact. They don't normally do it in a group setting, but it is worthwhile when soloing normal stuff.

Nobody here thinks it allows you to be better than any other DD, because we know it doesn't and the math shows it doesn't; unless of course your name is Dallas.

500 Attack including food is absolutely pathetic even outside Abyssea. That was pretty funny.

Completely agreed on the statement, but using attack food and having capped skill you should be doing better than that- like 550-600 at least. You can go a little higher with Ifrit, outside of abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

I fully agree with this; It IS, however, a stronger DD than a good, non-EMP SMN. There is of course a price for any extra damage, and that price is some amount of risk, depending on your targets. If you can manage that risk, then you can make use of it to speed up soloing and some not-too-difficult NMs. Most SMNs I know soloing trash mobs (e.g. normal mobs conning a low T or less) will melee because they know they can do it safely against an avatar that's just used a strong blood pact. They don't normally do it in a group setting, but it is worthwhile when soloing normal stuff.

Nobody here thinks it allows you to be better than any other DD, because we know it doesn't and the math shows it doesn't; unless of course your name is Dallas.

Can agree 100% with this.

Melee'ing is definitely situational, taking all other jobs out of the equation and looking at Summoner alone. There are definitely benefits to sitting back and using perp staves on certain things, and there are plenty of "certain things" this fits with. Having both options is always better than just having one though.

[Alhanelem]

One thing people need to remember is all of the relic and empyrean weapons are designed to be swung. There is simply one for each weapon type and the jobs are assigned to the weapons based on which weapon is "primary" to those jobs. None of these weapons specifically does anything special for a given job (e.g. enhances some ability or spell of that job); The Mythic weapons were the weapons built with this in mind. You do not get a relic or mythic weapon unless you are going to use it to whack things, no matter which job you are. White mages get damage clubs, even though most of them use a staff most of the time; these clubs are built to be swung (except the mythic club which is awesome for normal WHM activities). Other mages get damage staves. Other jobs get damage <whatevers>. BLU gets a damage sword. I realize that for some of these jobs, most people do not usually swing their weapons. But they can if they really feel like it. These weapons are for those people, and have utility to those people. They do not have utility to everyone, and in fact only a few people. In my personal, humble opinion, this is fine, as long as it's useful to somebody for some reason. Finally, the relic/empyrean weapons are centered around a new weapon skill. You don't use a weapon skill if you don't melee, so I don't know why anyone who doesn't melee at all even cares about this. There is already an ultimate weapon that better suits them: The mythic weapon.

TL:DR; all the relic/emp weapons are built as devices to hit things with, regardless of job; If for any reason in the world you want to hit something with a weapon on your SMN, SCH, or BLM, these are the weapons to do it with. If you want a weapon that enhances the spells/abilities/traits of your job, then the mythic weapon is what you want. If you want to do the best possible damage in the cases where you swing your weapon, even if those cases are very rare, then the relic or empyrean is what you want.

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The mythic weapons specifically enhance abilities/spells/traits of jobs. These should be made less difficult to obtain, then people will realize there is a staff that fits their needs, they can then ignore/forget the relic/empyrean weapons.

[Korpg]

5) This thread is open because no one wants to read this crapfest. I'm sure it'll meet a swift lock whenever someone gets around to reporting some personal attacks or something. If someone's not interested in participating, though, they're welcome to just stop posting in this thread.

I only really post to point out Dallas's flaws, still hoping beyond hope that he would finally realize them.

That and to have him respond to make a fool out of himself.