Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

[Rubeus]

@ dubberrucky: not all magian trials and AF3 can be done in 1-2 days. I've been working for awhile on some of mine... for instance, kill adze 30 times? that's not exactly something you can get done in 2 days time. especially if you solo most of all the stuff before that.

@ greatguardian: and the entire concept of an FFXI-middle class is absolutely assinine. from what i'm gathering, you *want* it to be a kingpin system where those of us that played back at US Release and got our crafts to 100 and hoarded gil and basically set the prices for new items and have our relic 5's and survived the economy crash way back at christmas of 2005 where gil-buying was so rife they had to make a task force for it. you want -those- players to be the upper class? and the rest of us to be somewhere-in-between-but-good-enough-that-we-aren't-considered-bad-players? ... yeah... cos that's completely fair in every conceivable way. let me go quit my day job and buy 100 million gil with money i don't have and rewind time so i can use mr argus in order to have even a CHANCE at catching up to you. the last thing this game needs is an oligarchy.

or.. i could just play the game without cheating and still get top tier by myself.

^ gonna go for that last one.

if anything, abyssea has given more jobs more reasons to level and more options for what they can do afterwards. it's a good thing.

what I'm seeing most in 40 pages is people who used to be "tier 1, tournament-level professionals" get dropped down to common throng by new tactics and new gear/advancements/etc when THEY didn't invent it this time. "They" gave us colibri camps, and an economy, and a method for levelling crafts, and an AH with stuff on it, and so on. "They" didn't give us abyssea leeching and why would they because "They" get smothered into the middle class because of it. Of course they hate it.

I levelled my thief from 37 to 75 by myself, solo, the entire way, over the course of 6 months when Wings first came out, and I did it entirely through campaign. The trick is that Sneak Attack is a guaranteed hit, so even for a lvl 37 I'd do my 5 damage here, 15 damage there (before they nerfed NPCs and buffed mobs in campaign. before the northlands, before any of that.) and you could get away with it and earn yourself a good little 200 xp a fight. Which, at a time when THF wasn't getting invites at all (my flag was up for most of my campaigning experience. even with a seacom. even though I can speak Japanese.) it was the ONLY way to level. I levelled it because I wanted a way to support my goldsmithing, which needed gold ingots and beyond. THF did that for me and got it through the 70s with gold and hanging out in Oldton Movalpolos for -ever-. Am I upset that people who joined 5 days ago can get to 90 THF? No. I'm upset that I couldn't. Am I jealous of them? No. Am I upset that my goldsmithing 80+ is worthless now? Absolutely.

But I have other threads proposing how to make that change. I don't just whine about it.

[Naturebeckles]

You act like you're the only one that knows why THFs would want CHR or Evasion. >_>

Sorry, nope. While it's possible that some people may not be aware that CHR is a mod for DE, the evasion gear should be pretty obvious.

It's still fairly easy to tell who is an idiot and who isn't by /checking someone. It may be harder to discern from the avergae to above average yes, but I'm talking about the people who use starting rings at 90, or level 14 ones, or an Ether Ring on a WAR. The people who are beyond stupid and beyond help. Those are easy to pick it. Quite often you don't even need to /check them to see that they're a window licker. Reading their shouts or comments may often be enough, /sea and check their subjob, and even times just look at their name. If I meet someone named Xxxcloudxgokux, chances are, they're absolutely stupid. Or most drug referencing names, really, figuring out who is stupid isn't impossible, and certainly not even hard. Pretending otherwise is silly.

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

[Rubeus]

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

I actually left Sylph for Bismarck last March for that very reason.

[Greatguardian]

I think you misunderstand me. I appreciate the rise of FFXI's middle class. More well-geared, competent players means more people I can talk to, work with, and enjoy time with in game without tearing my hair out. The only thing I don't appreciate is the idea that "Everyone is now good at FFXI, so everyone has the right to tell the developers what to do and make pointless threads bitching about what other people do." Or, "I'm a middle-class player but FFXI is too easy, give me more challenge SE."

Do people think it makes them cool to say that? Why, because it's what certain upper class players have been saying for ages? I tell you what, it didn't make those people cool either. That said, I have no issue with rog, or Thorny, or any of the other upper class players who said FFXI was easy. But they earned the respect of the playerbase by contributing to the advancement of the community, not by going around bragging about how easy AF3 NMs that were designed to be easy are.

No one in the Dev team or the community cares specifically about my opinion, or Rog's, or Cream Soda's, Raen Ryong's, Fiarlia's, etc just because we're upper tier players. Why so many people seem to think their whims are of the utmost importance to the Devs and the community as a whole just because they're no longer low tier players is beyond me, and easily the most frustrating part of reading these forums.

Edit: For clarity, there is a huge difference between "Well, I don't like this." and "The devs need to change this or everyone will quit because I am awesome at economics and stuff"

[Fiarlia]

Well Fiarlia, considering I've yet to run into other thfs on sylph who actually DO try and build chr, I found it necessary to point it out as an actual working gear strategy for that job.

Fair enough, I certainly can't fault you for trying to halt any bashing towards you before it happens. Just keep in mind that not everyone has to have it explained.

I do agree with what you're saying though with people who play war and wear an ether ring. I'm not sure ALL of those people are beyond help. I think it mainly most people don't want to devote that much energy turning a window licker to a decent player. A lot of people on Sylph are too busy standing around Port Jeuno in their AF3 +2 gear looking like they're all special.

Well, we're just going to have to disagree there. I personally believe any DD job that wears an MP ring, or gears for MP (this is not counting COR/WHM, obviously... the debate on how worthless that job combo itself is for another time though), or any BLM that nukes in STR gear is beyond help. I'm talking about the kind of gear that can actually make your head hurt if you try to wrap your mind around what their reasoning could have possibly been. The kind of gear that makes your jaw drop in disbelief.

I'm not talking about simple misguided gear choices, such as stacking STR upon STR for WS's in Abyssea, when fSTR is (likely) going to be capped and you'd be better off gearing for Attack (if uncapped) or the modifiers. I understand that not everyone will know when fSTR is capped, and may not even know what it is, and that's fine. Those people are simply misguided or not knowledgeable enough, and are usually open to suggestions and will take an effort to understand and apply it to the best of their ability. In fact a good number of these types of people will outright ask people for help, especially if they have friends that know the formulas and understand the inner workings of game mechanics. Now, since these people can be slightly off or misguided, seeing an occasional "WTF" piece of gear amidst otherwise perfectly sound selections (even if not quite the absolute best for that slot) is understandable, and /checking them usually won't make you think they're stupid when they're not. These people are also incredibly unlikely to wear MP rings on a DD job, or STR on BLM, nuking in a scythe.

I'm sorry, but I firmly believe there are players of this game who really are beyond help, whom I affectionately call window lickers. And I would rather sit afk in my AF3+2 or Twilight gear than help them. The slightly misguided? Sure! I'll even run the calculations for them (most that I talk to know I have spreadsheets of formulas). I have no problem helping those who can be helped, and do so fairly often.

[Naturebeckles]

I actually left Sylph for Bismarck last March for that very reason.

I understand why. I myself though have made just enough friends on Sylph that I'll probably always be here (unless they pick Sylph to merge servers again of course). I made more friends when Fairy got merged with us last March. I have the attitude that if people don't like the way I am or how I play my game, they can go *bleep* themselves. I have no problem telling them that to their faces on the game either. I'll just keep leading Dynamis runs around people who can handle how I get worked up over the run just because I want it to be successful and can crack jokes with me and the other officers the whole run. We sometimes get some really great laughs by the end of it.

[Naturebeckles]

Well, we're just going to have to disagree there. I personally believe any DD job that wears an MP ring, or gears for MP (this is not counting COR/WHM, obviously... the debate on how worthless that job combo itself is for another time though), or any BLM that nukes in STR gear is beyond help. I'm talking about the kind of gear that can actually make your head hurt if you try to wrap your mind around what their reasoning could have possibly been. The kind of gear that makes your jaw drop in disbelief.

I'm not talking about simple misguided gear choices, such as stacking STR upon STR for WS's in Abyssea, when fSTR is (likely) going to be capped and you'd be better off gearing for Attack (if uncapped) or the modifiers. I understand that not everyone will know when fSTR is capped, and may not even know what it is, and that's fine. Those people are simply misguided or not knowledgeable enough, and are usually open to suggestions and will take an effort to understand and apply it to the best of their ability. In fact a good number of these types of people will outright ask people for help, especially if they have friends that know the formulas and understand the inner workings of game mechanics. Now, since these people can be slightly off or misguided, seeing an occasional "WTF" piece of gear amidst otherwise perfectly sound selections (even if not quite the absolute best for that slot) is understandable, and /checking them usually won't make you think they're stupid when they're not. These people are also incredibly unlikely to wear MP rings on a DD job, or STR on BLM, nuking in a scythe.

I'm sorry, but I firmly believe there are players of this game who really are beyond help, whom I affectionately call window lickers. And I would rather sit afk in my AF3+2 or Twilight gear than help them. The slightly misguided? Sure! I'll even run the calculations for them (most that I talk to know I have spreadsheets of formulas). I have no problem helping those who can be helped, and do so fairly often.

I myself am guilty of checking people and thinking WTF???

But I have experiences of helping somebody who others might consider a window licker turn into a decent player and some of those players are actually some of my BEST players in Dynamis. I have also tried to help some people become better players and it was just a flat out lost cause. But yeah, I do know what kind of people you mean and I don't disagree that those people exist. I guess I'm hard headed enough to try and help some of them and then just give up when it's obvious they're a true window licker.

[Rubeus]

I think you misunderstand me. I appreciate the rise of FFXI's middle class. More well-geared, competent players means more people I can talk to, work with, and enjoy time with in game without tearing my hair out. The only thing I don't appreciate is the idea that "Everyone is now good at FFXI, so everyone has the right to tell the developers what to do and make pointless threads bitching about what other people do." Or, "I'm a middle-class player but FFXI is too easy, give me more challenge SE."

Do people think it makes them cool to say that? Why, because it's what certain upper class players have been saying for ages? I tell you what, it didn't make those people cool either. That said, I have no issue with rog, or Thorny, or any of the other upper class players who said FFXI was easy. But they earned the respect of the playerbase by contributing to the advancement of the community, not by going around bragging about how easy AF3 NMs that were designed to be easy are.

No one in the Dev team or the community cares specifically about my opinion, or Rog's, or Cream Soda's, Raen Ryong's, Fiarlia's, etc just because we're upper tier players. Why so many people seem to think their whims are of the utmost importance to the Devs and the community as a whole just because they're no longer low tier players is beyond me, and easily the most frustrating part of reading these forums.

Edit: For clarity, there is a huge difference between "Well, I don't like this." and "The devs need to change this or everyone will quit because I am awesome at economics and stuff"

I wasn't going on the assumption that things NEED to be changed or anyone NEEDS to listen to anyone else; and for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree that the pseudo-french-revolution in ffxi is a direct result of so many low-tier players becoming middle-tier and feeling spit-upon the entire way up the ladder. Now they have an easymode (and I will concede that's what it is) but as many many people have already pointed out, skill is not a direct correlation to how you got there, and your choices are abundant.

I'm not trying to make any other point besides this: there are other opinions besides my own, your own, his/her own, and so forth. Understanding this is tantamount to understanding necessary changes, if any. You would need to know all the business repercussions to SE before you could know the repercussions to the game's economy which would still affect new players' coming in and old players' leaving rate.

In short, lots of things in FFXI take a long time to do. LOTS of things. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Face-value judgments are the worst. Fanatical devotion to an opinion without seeing anyone elses is called ignorance. There is a lot on the table in this very tiny category of debate, and knowing it all would take time and analysis of every possible outcome. If a person can't contribute towards HOW to 1: analyze it and 2: improve it then DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

P.S.: this isn't directed at anyone in specific; but pages 30-35 should give you an idea of how it SHOULDN'T go.

[Alhanelem]

If you want to be judgemental, that's fine
If you want to not like people who don't do things the way you think they should, that's fine.

In either of those cases, you should either
1) help that person if they can be helped
2) ignore them and be on your way, or
3) blacklist them., don't party with them, do whatever, I don't care, as long as it's not demanding a band-aid for a non-problem.

What doesn't need to be done is have changes made. Most people playing the game now are not new. In most cases, if they're leeching a job at all, they probably already have the skills for leveled from another job, or they're leveling it purely as a sub and have no intention of playing that job seriously.

[Naturebeckles]

I wasn't going on the assumption that things NEED to be changed or anyone NEEDS to listen to anyone else; and for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree that the pseudo-french-revolution in ffxi is a direct result of so many low-tier players becoming middle-tier and feeling spit-upon the entire way up the ladder. Now they have an easymode (and I will concede that's what it is) but as many many people have already pointed out, skill is not a direct correlation to how you got there, and your choices are abundant.

I'm not trying to make any other point besides this: there are other opinions besides my own, your own, his/her own, and so forth. Understanding this is tantamount to understanding necessary changes, if any. You would need to know all the business repercussions to SE before you could know the repercussions to the game's economy which would still affect new players' coming in and old players' leaving rate.

In short, lots of things in FFXI take a long time to do. LOTS of things. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Face-value judgments are the worst. Fanatical devotion to an opinion without seeing anyone elses is called ignorance. There is a lot on the table in this very tiny category of debate, and knowing it all would take time and analysis of every possible outcome. If a person can't contribute towards HOW to 1: analyze it and 2: improve it then DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

P.S.: this isn't directed at anyone in specific; but pages 30-35 should give you an idea of how it SHOULDN'T go.

I would like to add that any player who has been here long enough to remember level 75 being our highest level can attest to SE's severe lack of using feedback to improve their game in the past. The first time that opinion changed for me was when they FIXED Despoil for thf and Restraint for war (when those two ja's came out they were HORRIBLE and not even worth using).

The fact that SE even cares enough to listen now after a good 8-9 years of not giving a crap speaks volumes to me. Do I think my own little voice matters more than it did a year ago? Not really. It's harder than hell to get a hold of a GM in the game now for legitimate reasons. But at least SE is making an effort to keep its already paying customers to fix or change the game to make it the most worthwhile experience for the most people possible. Well, at least the development team is.