Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Razushu]

droping the dnc is stupid, a buffed dnc is better than an unbeffed one (drop the whm, he don't need to be in pt for most spells anyway)



because DD/DDsub +DNC outdmg DD/dnc +smn

and why use a job that is only good once every min to save haste cycle to the whm?
and IMO if smn have a buff that is worth using, loosing 45sec because you wasted your ward for hastega when the whm could have done it is waste.

It's a buff we can cycle and it's more efficent than spell haste I don't lose anything by keeping it up.

Again not getting into a DMG vs DMG p*ssing contest, SMN adds buffs/DD/support to a party which is a potent combo if used right

[Razushu]

Good god. How many groups are these people in where there are no other mages tossing out Haste such that Summoner's Hastega suddenly means a flying frappoli?

Protip: When the people in the party would be getting Spell Haste with or without a Summoner, Hastega means absolutely nothing. You are not providing 15% Haste to the party. You are providing 120~ MP to the White or Red Mage. Net gain to DDs from Summoner's Hastega? Zero.

I'm not sure where this "I can do 3 things that Cor can do, all weaker than COR, but I still earn my place" deal is coming from either. I'm sorry, but your definition of "earning a spot" is just different from other people's. Are people going to kick you out of the spot for being useless? No. Are you really contributing as much as anyone else in the group? I'm sorry, but absolutely not. Fortunately for Summoners everywhere, FFXI players are used to having to pull other people's weight on a regular basis.

Maybe the people you play with have to and are happy to pull someone elses weight, I'm not one of them and no one I know is. Please stop trying to tell me that the way I've proven useful time and again doesn't work, because clearly it does or I wouldn't be a career SMN that does it

Are people going to kick you out of the spot for being useless? Absolutely, I see it all the time.

Are you really contributing as much as anyone else in the group? More than enough to justify my being there.

If you're gonna stay close minded and bring nothing to the discussion but "I am right so SFTU" there's no point in you being here. As i said I do it it works, it doesn't stop working because you say so. You can say the sky is green as much as you want but it'll still be blue when I check my window

[Korpg]

Wait, what the heck is this?

SMN won't outdamage any DDs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outbuff any RDM/WHM/COR/BRD/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outheal any WHM/RDM/SCH/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outnuke any BLM/SCH. That is a universal truth.

Yes, SMN can do all 3 described above without any problems, but that is not the point. SMN will not take over any single job. They just do the same job as everyone else, abet a moderate job. Not enough to not do, but not enough to become the best at in the game.

The point of the SMN is solo ability. SMN can outsolo 17 out of the other 19 jobs, and is equal to the other 2 jobs. Having versatility is just a bonus, not a trait.

[Razushu]

Wait, what the heck is this?

SMN won't outdamage any DDs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outbuff any RDM/WHM/COR/BRD/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outheal any WHM/RDM/SCH/DNCs. That is a universal truth.

SMN won't outnuke any BLM/SCH. That is a universal truth.

Yes, SMN can do all 3 described above without any problems, but that is not the point. SMN will not take over any single job. They just do the same job as everyone else, abet a moderate job. Not enough to not do, but not enough to become the best at in the game.

The point of the SMN is solo ability. SMN can outsolo 17 out of the other 19 jobs, and is equal to the other 2 jobs. Having versatility is just a bonus, not a trait.

Solo ability is great, but it adds nothing to party play. Our versatility is as much a trait as our solo ability and it can be used to back up a party well

[Korpg]

I don't know. I think that if anything, solo ability and versatility aren't equal, because of the limitations on BP timers.

lower our timers, and our versatility goes up like that.

My opinion of the SMN job ability structure.

1)Solo
2)Damage
3)Buffs
4)Heals
5)Versatility

Lower the BP timers, then it becomes:

1)Solo (tie)
1)Damage (tie)
3)Versatility (tie)
3)Buffs (tie)
5)Heals

[Greatguardian]

Solo ability is great, but it adds nothing to party play. Our versatility is as much a trait as our solo ability and it can be used to back up a party well

How versatile are you when White Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Red Mage can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Corsair can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Bard can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Scholar can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

Gee, I think I listed every job in the game that's capable of buffing, healing, and damaging simultaneously. They all do it better than Summoner.

[Dallas]

So the smn is there to just save the whm mp that he doesn't even need?

See "TP Feed" argument. There are people who believe that WHM run out of MP unless you are a Ukon WAR in which case Pantokrator will die halfway through his TP move and you don't even need to bring a WHM.

[Korpg]

When Dancer can outbuff, outheal, and outdamage you all at the same time?

Most of your post is correct, however, Dancer's role in the buff department is only Job Ability Haste.

Yes, I know that Haste = Hastaga, and Haste Samba > Hastaga, so lets take that out of the equation. Does SMN have no other buffs to offer? Sure, having special buffs, like AoE Stoneskin, AoE Damage Mitgration, AoE Blink (for those of them who aren't NIN or /NIN or /SAM), AoE Phalanx (for those who aren't SCH or /SCH), AoE Evasion Up, AoE Evasion/Accuracy Up, AoE Spikes (Enspell and Damage Spikes both). I mean, there are a lot more buffs that SMN can give to the party than what DNC is capable of doing. So, I don't think that DNC can outbuff SMN. Outdamage and Outheal, yes.

[Korpg]

See "TP Feed" argument. There are people who believe that WHM run out of MP unless you are a Ukon WAR in which case Pantokrator will die halfway through his TP move and you don't even need to bring a WHM.

Hmm, and you accuse me of poor reading skills?

Maybe you have selective reasoning disability. You only see what you want to see, and only if it makes you look good.

[Greatguardian]

Most of your post is correct, however, Dancer's role in the buff department is only Job Ability Haste.

Yes, I know that Haste = Hastaga, and Haste Samba > Hastaga, so lets take that out of the equation. Does SMN have no other buffs to offer? Sure, having special buffs, like AoE Stoneskin, AoE Damage Mitgration, AoE Blink (for those of them who aren't NIN or /NIN or /SAM), AoE Phalanx (for those who aren't SCH or /SCH), AoE Evasion Up, AoE Evasion/Accuracy Up, AoE Spikes (Enspell and Damage Spikes both). I mean, there are a lot more buffs that SMN can give to the party than what DNC is capable of doing. So, I don't think that DNC can outbuff SMN. Outdamage and Outheal, yes.

This implies that all of those buffs are useful. Phalanx most certainly is not as omgawesome as it sounds. In most cases, the effect is practically moot when dealing with anything that hits harder than an EP mandragora. Stoneskinga has limited use and is also available from practically every SCH and SCH sub mage in existence, so that's not a unique buff. Hastega is also absolutely worthless so I won't start there.

10% JA Haste is absolutely godly in practically every circumstance, even without a bard (looking at going from 40% to 50% Haste for most competent DDs, no bard). I dare say that alone is more of a buff than any sort of Eva boost, crappy Blink, or rehashed Stoneskin can offer. Summoner's best (read: only good) DD buff is completely incompatible with DNC to boot, sharply throttling its practical usefulness.