Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Alhanelem]

I'm talking about SMN vs ... not-SMN.

I'm not. The melee summoner can perform better than the not melee summoner. The fact that this still doesn't bring it to a really competitive level is beyond my control. I am simply trying to get the most out of the Summoner job that I possibly can. Whether that's enough for any non-summoner, I couldn't care less. I only care if it is able to enhance what summoner can do. And it does.

Yes. But can WAR + SMN duo Orthrus?

Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could. Obviously it would be too dangerous for the SMN to be up close in this case. But unless you need something that only WHM has, then yes. It's possible.

I am not Dallas. I'm not going to tell you that you can compete with the usual DD jobs. Let it be known, I never once claimed and am not claiming now that this was possible. Please understand this. All -I- am saying is that this broaden's the job's potential a little. It doesn't fix inherent problems with the job, but it does help you get more out of the job with those problems in place. Can you give me that much?

[Ophiuchus]

This is a contradiction how?

Spirits are NOT viable. The people that use them use them for the same purpose that they would use an avatar- to inflict damage (except with light spirit, of course). However, avatars are vastly superior in every way. This is not a subjective opinion. It's a fact. Spirits do less damage, cost more MP (reduceable to same MP if merited), and are essentially uncontrollable.

I "vailiantly defend" the melee strategy because it works. Total damage output increases. Using spirits instead of avatars is like meleeing with an elemental staff instead of a relic weapon. I do not, however, claim that you'll run circles around normal DDs, like someone else here does. It is just an incrimental improvement over what SMN is already capable of.

The contradiction was how the two viewpoints on separate matters are attacked by the same mindset. I admit spirits are weak compared to avatars however I don't agree that their "purpose" was to be weak and that they should be left at that.

You dismiss spirits by facts and logic. The same way other's dismiss melee SMN.

As far as Dallas I already have him on a mental /blocklist you could say. I just dislike the personalities that both hates themselves and supports themselves depending on which has the greater return.

The introduction of mythic in my last statement was an admitted mistake. I feel they hold more over the relic/emp staff weapons.

Also I in fact love playing healing but absolutely cannot stand playing whm(and I used to like SCH until the 75 cap was raised). Why is that? I myself am not sure honestly perhaps just my own stubbornness somehow but I love how the normal way of smn is played. I can cure, buff, support, and, though in abyssea, pets that can deal 5k Nukes/45s which are nothing really to brag about in abyssea it certainly doesn't hurt to top it all off with that. Could my group be better off by getting a WHM and WAR to replace me, if they are decently geared, yes. However we thankfully don't have such a curse because we are a small group. Of which the main needed jobs for success are already filled by people that favorite those jobs. And seeing as we prefer fun over absolute effectiveness(subjective) we can take that luxery for what it's worth.

So the normal way of playing smn fits my situated play style almost perfect, the same way melee smn fits situational play styles. Though I personally see normal over melee, I don't go around spouting that as the best way to play the job. I prefer a more "do your own thing" attitude. Unfortunately however not everyone has the same respect and courtesy.

[Neisan_Quetz]

*Cure V's and VI's and shell V totally doesn't exist at all.

[Greatguardian]

I'm not. The melee summoner can perform better than the not melee summoner. The fact that this still doesn't bring it to a really competitive level is beyond my control. I am simply trying to get the most out of the Summoner job that I possibly can. Whether that's enough for any non-summoner, I could care less.

Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could.

Unless you've never fought Orthrus, you should know that sometimes you do. SMN doesn't have Shell V or Cure V either, and have shit for timers on IV. Really, it's unlikely that they can.

However, I'm glad you concede the point that SMN absolutely can't compare to other jobs. This is not something you have been willing to admit (for very long) for practically this entire thread. Yes, I've said a hundred times now that it's possible for melee to increase the damage potential of Summoner. But no amount of whack-a-mole with a staff is going to make Summoner a half-decent DD in comparison to ... anyone else (which is the only true measurement of being a half decent DD). Thus, Summoner as a whole is not a very viable job choice.

As long as we're cool on the fact that Summoner is bottom of the barrel regardless of whatever increase in efficiency the melee playstyle brings to it, I have no problem here. The same is likely true for the majority of the other posters here. Very few of us have been trying to say that Melee'ing is not an upgrade over not Melee'ing. Simply that it makes little difference in the overall scheme of things when it does not make SMN anything more than #18/20.

[Razushu]

And like I keep saying, it DOES improve SMN performance. Melee = better damage, same buffs. Easier to use the buffs. Meleeing decreases your ability to use your avatars buffs by precisely ZERO. It does not affect your ability to use buffs AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NO CHANGE IN EFFECTIVENESS.
I will keep menitoning favor because it is not pointless.Double attack rate? crit rate? stacks with other similar buffs? Far from pointless. The physical damage loss on the avatar is negligible.

You can stop repeating what you're saying now, because it's just plain incorrect. Having your weapon drawn does not mean your buffs get weaker, are harder to use, take longer, or have any detrimental effect on them whatsoever. NOTHING CHANGES. PERIOD.

There is NO WAY you can keep up the same number of buffs and support the party to near the same degree as me while meleeing. If you're cycling avatars to stack buffs you are not swinging, if you're casting subjob spells to back up the party you are not swinging. If you aren't swinging your staff eventually you'll run out of MP.

Double attack rate? crit rate? yeah these are nice, but aren't they off the less favored DD avatar's and then you add the fact you gimp them EVERYTIME you BP. Why are you so willing to do anything to melee on SMN. Surely the goal is to max out your damage but now you're using weaker avatars to boost your damage with buffs that resent went you BP and even hurt your avatar's damage anyway.

Of course having a weapon drawn won't weaken buffs never said that BUT it severely lowers your ability to support the party purely by the fact you can't melee while casting, which means you have to make a choice between maximizing your melee damage or focusing on casting to back up your team mates. You can't do both or there'd be no such thing as a backline WHM

[Alhanelem]

I don't agree that their "purpose" was to be weak and that they should be left at that.

The thing is, spirits have useful purposes. Offense just isn't one of them.

You dismiss spirits by facts and logic. The same way other's dismiss melee SMN.

I haven't seen any facts and logic other than comparing the job to a mainline DD and saying it won't perform anywhere near that. Let it be clear: That is not in dispute. This is only about improving the summoner from it's current capacity with the (however problematic) tools currently at our disposal. That is all this is about. Nothing more.

There is NO WAY you can keep up the same number of buffs and support the party to near the same degree as me while meleeing

You absolutely can. You do it the same way you did it without your weapon drawn. Having your weapon drawn has zero impact on your ability to press your BP macro or summon a different avatar.
Ordinarily, I would stick to a few buffs which I can easily maintain without having to resummon every 45 seconds. But if you really really want every single summoner buff, sure. I'll do it just as well as any other summoner. I repeat: Being engaged does not affect your ability to cast summons, nor does it affect your ability to press whatever button your BP macro is on.

[TybudX]

Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could.

...

Is this another one of those things that SMN can't do because it's out of your control?

"It's not my fault that the job can't main heal a WAR, Only SE can do something about that"

[Ophiuchus]

The thing is, spirits have useful purposes. Offense just isn't one of them.

That right there. How do you get to dictate what is their useful purpose? You argument is the same as other's who say melee smn is not smn's purpose.

[Alhanelem]

...

Is this another one of those things that SMN can't do because it's out of your control?

"It's not my fault that the job can't main heal a WAR, Only SE can do something about that"

You aren't making sense. Come back when you can make an intelligible statement.

I have never tried to duo Orthrus, so I don't really know how much curing capacity is really needed. Thankfully,Razushucovered that in an intelligent civil manner (And I thank him for that). I'm still thinking it would be possible, though probably much more difficult.

How do you get to dictate what is their useful purpose?

I didn't dictate their useful purposes. The playerbase, and SQUEENIX, did. SE added the Elemental Siphon ability. There's a use.
Spirits cast fast, so they can be helpful sometimes to get an aggro'd mob off. Light spirit is useful for being able to give you higher tier pro/shell among other things. So you're saying that I'm the first person to say they are useful for these things?

Let's go over spirits for damage, shall we? The spirits have no magic attack bonus, so their nukes are inferior to anyone else who can cast the same spell. Second, they have some spells you probably don't want them to cast, and it chooses the spell mostly at random (doesn't choose elemental debuffs or enfeebles if the mob already has them). Third, they have no durability, and cannot be controlled. I'm not an authority on the entire game, but those facts SOUND to me like they'd make for inferior combat ability to avatars, which are capable of higher damage. The only real advantage to using spirits to nuke that I can see off-hand, is the small chance that you could get abyssea procs with them.

Trying to use my logic against me doesn't make the statements above less valid.

[TybudX]

It makes perfect sense if you've ever played SMN in a healing capacity, or been on a DD job that is capable of pulling hate.