Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Korpg]

BRD is designed for melee. That job out damages melee SMN. See how bad SMN melee is? When a spoony BRD out damage you without buffs (outside of what the job offers), with a dagger no less, then maybe the job isn't designed for melee.

SMN was designed for a multitude of things. Spike Damage. AoE Cures. AoE Buffs. AoE Debuffs. Strong soloing ability. No job should be solely dependent on the subjob for what the player would like to do. If the SMN wants to be the main healer, they have to sub /WHM to do so. If the SMN wants to be a melee, they have to sub /WAR or /SAM to do so. That is not what SMN was designed to do.

[Byrth]

Biggest enemy to melee summoners is logic. Second biggest enemy is advocates like Dallas.

[Sparthos]

Biggest enemy to melee summoners is logic. Second biggest enemy is advocates like Dallas.

His entire argument is built on the crutch of Abyssean buffs where anyone can melee at a passable rate.

Im half tempted to revive my SCH, gear it for melee and proclaim melee superiority using a Pluto's Staff and Omniscience. Look out SMN, competition has arrived.

[Alhanelem]

poorer party buffs/support

This is nonsense. In a party, this lets you use Favor to its fullest; it also lets you take better advantage of SMN's party buffs because you're always already near everyone.

Biggest enemy to melee summoners is logic

Logic is the strategy's biggest ally, not it's biggest enemy. It's biggest enemy is closed minds. Logic dictates that if you want to do more damage at any cost and you have already maximized your blood pacts, the only way to add more damage is to add avatar melee, master melee, or both.

"You are a mage and you can't melee" is not logic.

His entire argument is built on the crutch of Abyssean buffs where anyone can melee at a passable rate.

It is far from being only effective in abyssea. Abyssea only inflates numbers; they keep mostly the same proportions as outside of abyssea. The only real difference is the dominance of critical hit WS, which arguably makes SMN worse in abyssea than elsewhere because staff has no crit WS.

BRD is designed for melee. That job out damages melee SMN.

No, it really doesn't. I will stake my reputation on that. I don't even see BRD doing more damage with any dagger WS than I could do with retribution or Aftermath damage, then you have the avatar on top of that. I'm sorry. BRD 1) isn't "designed for melee" and 2) does not out damage probably any proper SMN, much less melee SMN. I thought we had an understanding up til this point, maybe I was wrong. You are just making stuff up here. No BRD is going to out damage ANYBODY except maybe a SCH trying to melee the best they can. A SMN's staff does not exist in a vaccum, and the avatar must be included, because if you're not using your avatar, you're not a SMN.

[Razushu]

This is nonsense. In a party, this lets you use Favor to its fullest; it also lets you take better advantage of SMN's party buffs because you're always already near everyone.

Favor is terrible weakened damage from Garuda for extra evasion that resets every 45 seconds? not worth the invite. When people mention buff they mean wards which unless you're just giving the pt just shadows hastega and weak eva boost which is not really using your SMN to fully benefit the party, you have to pet swap and thats only going to hurt your melee spreading yourself thinner.

Logic is the strategy's biggest ally, not it's biggest enemy. It's biggest enemy is closed minds. Logic dictates that if you want to do more damage at any cost and you have already maximized your blood pacts, the only way to add more damage is to add avatar melee, master melee, or both.

You add damage and other bonuses to the party by buffing it also which is safer. Besides if you were there to solely DD, Why are you there? Honestly if theres going to be a melee on the monster why wouldn'y it be an actual DD

"You are a mage and you can't melee well" is logic.

This is more accurate and less close minded than the "I wanna melee so I'm gonna" approach

It is far from being only effective in abyssea. Abyssea only inflates numbers; they keep mostly the same proportions as outside of abyssea. The only real difference is the dominance of critical hit WS, which arguably makes SMN worse in abyssea than elsewhere because staff has no crit WS.

It's not just the nummbers that scale up you'll be missing alot of accuracy and attk from stat buff in that'll hurt too

[Razushu]

No, it really doesn't. I will stake my reputation on that. I don't even see BRD doing more damage with any dagger WS than I could do with retribution or Aftermath damage, then you have the avatar on top of that. I'm sorry. BRD 1) isn't "designed for melee" and 2) does not out damage probably any proper SMN, much less melee SMN. I thought we had an understanding up til this point, maybe I was wrong. You are just making stuff up here. No BRD is going to out damage ANYBODY except maybe a SCH trying to melee the best they can. A SMN's staff does not exist in a vaccum, and the avatar must be included, because if you're not using your avatar, you're not a SMN.

I've seen melee BRDs do great numbers. Stop adding your Avatar's damage to your melee any style of SMN, if I'm not meleeing the avatar still does damage it doesn't disappear. The avatar's damage and Buffs is enough to make us useful and it's still there if you melee or not but if you melee the buff side falls behind

[Alhanelem]

Favor is terrible weakened damage from Garuda

Actually, it's barely weakened at all. The reduced attack has a minimal effect on melee DoT and physical blood pacts.

I've seen melee BRDs do great numbers. Stop adding your Avatar's damage to your melee any style of SMN,

The avatar's damage is part of the summoner's, I will not stop adding it because it is part of what I do. The avatar and its damage does not exist without the summoner. That's like saying the puppet isn't part of what the puppetmaster is doing. I have also never seen BRDs do "great" numbers, especially without buffs (which are part of the job and should be factored in just the same as I factor in the pets. This is about the performance of a job as a whole, not just one part of it while ignoring all others.

accuracy

I have no problems with accuracy. If it's not high enough, I'll just eat pizza instead of meat. Everyone else is missing those attack and accuracy buffs as well. Nothing about Abyssea helps SMN more than it helps any other job, and in fact other jobs benefit more.

[Raksha]

Everyone else is missing those attack and accuracy buffs as well.

Other jobs don't need them (DD gear, A+ skills, JAs/JTs etc.)

[Greatguardian]

Actually, it's barely weakened at all. The reduced attack has a minimal effect on melee DoT and physical blood pacts.

The avatar's damage is part of the summoner's, I will not stop adding it because it is part of what I do. The avatar and its damage does not exist without the summoner. That's like saying the puppet isn't part of what the puppetmaster is doing. I have also never seen BRDs do "great" numbers, especially without buffs (which are part of the job and should be factored in just the same as I factor in the pets. This is about the performance of a job as a whole, not just one part of it while ignoring all others.

I have no problems with accuracy. If it's not high enough, I'll just eat pizza instead of meat. Everyone else is missing those attack and accuracy buffs as well. Nothing about Abyssea helps SMN more than it helps any other job, and in fact other jobs benefit more.

I've grown weary of the argument in general, but he's not saying that Avatar damage is not part of Summoner damage. He's saying that certain people need to stop talking about "Player + Avatar DoT" as a benefit for melee'ing when the only added benefit from melee'ing is Player DoT. Avatar DoT will still be there even if the SMN is not melee'ing. Player+Avatar DoT is a measurement that can only be used to compare to Non-SMN Empyreans (Who the hell compares an Empyrean to a non-Emp? That's an even bigger fallacy), which is a worthless argument that only Dallas seems to wish to pursue. SMN will never outdamage a real DD, no matter how "unlazy" and contrived it is. If I were on Dallas's server (which one is that?), I'd be more than happy to prove that point personally.

Assuming you will never run out of MP either way, you are literally adding Staff TP-phase damage only. Is it an increase? Yes. It is massive? No, especially if you don't run out of MP either way. Is it the best route? That depends on what you give up by using it. If you lose nothing? Sure, more damage is always nice. If you actually do give up support-class benefits while melee'ing? Then it's debatable.

[Dallas]

His entire argument is built on the crutch of Abyssean buffs where anyone can melee at a passable rate.

Did everyone just climb out from under a rock? Pick a forum. Melee SMN first came out with colibri camps.

Assuming you will never run out of MP either way, you are literally adding Staff TP-phase damage only. Is it an increase? Yes. It is massive? No, especially not if you don't run out of MP either way.

You do realize that Minikin's refresh is the ONLY reason that "do nothing" SMN have unlimited MP, right? We're one good update away from SMN crying about their MP again. I'm looking forward to the good old days again.