Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Alhanelem]

If you're serious about a class, you understand and recognize the flaws of the given job. Failing to do so is a show of denial. This isn't about elitism, the facts are simply the facts.

Wrong. If you're serious about your class, you overcome the weaknesses of the job and become able to wield it for things people couldn't before. Using a relic/empyrean weapon and building a DD kit isn't a denial of anything. The facts are not being presented by you, thus they are not simply the facts. You do not have the facts because you do not have these weapons, this gear or have played this play style and know nothing except the theorycraft, which usually varies significantly from what people actually perform. We who are doing this already know about the formulas and the numbers.

The actual facts are this is a competent, viable strategy for those who prepare for it, and while it may not surpass what some other jobs are capable of, it DOES expand the capability of summoner and enables it to do more things with less help. Thinking outside the box and being creative with what you do allows you to dedicate yourself to your job instead of playing every single job just to be able to do everything you need to do. This isn't about being the best, it's about being more flexible and capable of a wider range of things.

-SMN is slightly better than BLM at melee yet Claustrum again does nothing to enhance the nature of the class.

It absolutely does. It enhances the damage-dealing nature of the class when using the class to inflict damage. The simple fact is that while an avatar can launch out some nice spike damage with its blood pact, you can inflict more damage if the avatar continues to fight before and after and if the master also fights. Both the relic and empyrean weaponskills offer you more tools to maintain your MP to allow this damage dealing to continue. I will not argue about BLM, because it cannot help them in any way short of using a TP wing in abyssea, and they are more dependent on elemental staves/MAB and must constantly switch weapons, while summoner doesn't have to do that.

The weapon by definition lacks utility outside soloing EPs.

Funny, those 800 damage crits against T mobs sure lacked utlity. Funny, those NMs I killed with melee-atma-buffed predator claws and recovering MP with myrkr to last the whole fight aren't EP mobs...

These weapons have great utility because they make something possible that wasn't very possible or at least not effective enough otherwise (Well, there was the mekki-shakki I guess, but that's about it). Nirvana in particular has no business being in a thread about weapons lacking utility for conventional summoner purposes, but all of these weapons are of some use to someone who knows how to use them.

[Sparthos]

Wrong. If you're serious about your class, you overcome the weaknesses of the job and become able to wield it for things people couldn't before. Using a relic/empyrean weapon and building a DD kit isn't a denial of anything. The facts are not being presented by you, thus they are not simply the facts. You do not have the facts because you do not have these weapons, this gear or have played this play style and know nothing except the theorycraft, which usually varies significantly from what people actually perform. We who are doing this already know about the formulas and the numbers.

How do you propose to overcome the fact that melee puts your frail SMN in range of deadly AOEs more than likely to kill you? Just pretend the mob isn't swinging, using tp or aoes I guess. How do you intend to overcome SMN and BLMs terrible hitrate on anything that matters (IT mobs, NMs, HNMs designed for lvl90)? How about the fact that meleeing on a mage puts you at more risk than standing back and doing what you do best?

But please, show me parses of your damage outside Abyssea with the Empyrean staff on Voidwatch or other content designed for level 90 players.

Like I said before, melee SMN or BLM for that matter is simply something to do on things that do not matter (old content, EP mobs) or within Abyssea where anyone can pass as being a good melee. It isn't useful on anything harder because you put yourself in danger of dying for pitifully low amounts of extra damage through staff melee.

The simple fact is that while an avatar can launch out some nice spike damage with its blood pact, you can inflict more damage if the avatar continues to fight before and after and if the master also fights. Both the relic and empyrean weaponskills offer you more tools to maintain your MP to allow this damage dealing to continue. I will not argue about BLM, because it cannot help them in any way short of using a TP wing in abyssea, and they are more dependent on elemental staves/MAB and must constantly switch weapons, while summoner doesn't have to do that.

Funny, those 800 damage crits against T mobs sure lacked utlity. Funny, those NMs I killed with melee-atma-buffed predator claws and recovering MP with myrkr to last the whole fight aren't EP mobs...

You keep mentioning Abyssea where you have a plethora of buffs supporting you and where ironically enough damage doesn't mean much without procs backing them up.

If you want to make waves and show how great melee SMN is, do it outside Abyssea. At least there you'd have a leg to stand on when you exclaim that melee SMN is a viable option.

Outside Abyssea where the rest of the game is (whats left of it), the Relic staff fails to live up to the reputation as an "ultimate weapon" granted it focuses on something the two classes do poorly at on anything that matters.

[Alhanelem]

How do you propose to overcome the fact that melee puts your frail SMN in range of deadly AOEs more than likely to kill you?

I'm not frail. I'm a Galka, and if it's deadly to me, it's deadly to others. If I can't be in melee range, then no one who isn't a tank can be either.

What part about this isn't ALWAYS applicable don't you understand? This isn't an end-all, replace everything else strategy. It is just one way of playing the job. There are many other ways that also come in handy in many situations. What part of this aren't you getting?

It's not like we are suddenly incapable of using normal SMN strategies just because we got these weapons.

If you want to make waves and show how great melee SMN is, do it outside Abyssea. At least there you'd have a leg to stand on when you exclaim that melee SMN is a viable option.

It is just as effective, if not more, outside of abyssea. It's just easier to display it there with people doing it all the time, and since Abyssea is the big thing right now, what you do there is what matters most.

[Sparthos]

I'm not frail. I'm a Galka, and if it's deadly to me, it's deadly to others. If I can't be in melee range, then no one who isn't a tank can be either.

Plenty of mobs where DD can be in range taking AOE so long as the support can handle it. PDT/MDT etc etc.

What part about this isn't ALWAYS applicable don't you understand? This isn't an end-all, replace everything else strategy. It is just one way of playing the job. There are many other ways that also come in handy in many situations. What part of this aren't you getting?

Guess you didn't bother to read where I said SMN melee is practically viable.

Weak mobs (lacking crippling aoes), lvl75 content and Abyssea are where it becomes an applicable strategy.

If you want to believe that Claustrum is fine as a melee tool that does nothing to improve the main talents of BLM and SMN, that's fine. I'll continue to acknowledge Claustrum as one of the many failures SE failed to address over the years.

No serious BLM will ever cast in Claustrum and melee SMN practicality is so slim that for the most part you'll never put the weapon to use.

It's a pretty legitimate reason for me to weep at any complete Claustrums. Well that and the disturbing prospect that hundreds of LS hours went into a solo toy.

[Malamasala]

-SMN is slightly better than BLM at melee yet Claustrum again does nothing to enhance the nature of the class.

It is leaps better at melee, due to mainly just having a 0.1 second activation delay on JA's instead of 5 seconds spell casting delays. I've always said SMN is even better than DRK for actual melee rounds, they just get screwed on armors.

[Korpg]

My personal experience declares this false. If you can't keep your MP up from one TP to the next, you're doing something wrong. And even if that's the case, you still have elemental siphon to fall back on.
Offensive gear in the visible gear slots is pretty limited. So you can keep most of your perp- and refresh, and favor the rings/earrings/back/waist/neck/weapon/grip. Additionally, Myrkr's mod is max MP (effectively), and with your usual SMN gear mostly having lots of MP on it, you will have it on for that. If you are using up more than 60% of your MP in the time it takes to build TP, you're doing something seriously wrong.

You can exercise your right to not use this playstyle, but I will exercise my right to say and prove that it is a useable and viable playstyle.

Well, I still don't see the reason behind Emp staff. Then again, not many people actually have one either.

If I'm going to make a superweapon for SMN, my choice would be Nirvana.

[Alhanelem]

any normal mobs, lvl90 content and Abyssea are where it becomes an applicable strategy.

Fixed that for you. Any fight in which DDs can spend time in close proximity to the target, the SMN can do it too.

If I'm going to make a superweapon for SMN, my choice would be Nirvana.

I would like one too, but it's almost impossible. The Empyrean staff suits my purposes, and is not insurmountable to obtain (up to the lv85 version- Azdaja is a pain for all of the relevant trials =\)

Is this strategy amazing, oh, my god the best thing there is for anything? No. Is it useable, viable, and effective, and does it expand SMN's versatility and capability? Yes, it does, and that's the whole point. I'm not suggesting anyone throw away their Soulscourges or bahamut staves or whatever else you might be using. But if you want to try something different that can be both fun and effective, that's what it's there for. There's nothing more or less to it than that.

It is leaps better at melee, due to mainly just having a 0.1 second activation delay on JA's instead of 5 seconds spell casting delays. I've always said SMN is even better than DRK for actual melee rounds, they just get screwed on armors.

Pretty much the truth. My melee attack rounds don't look much different from those of any other 2-hander. The fact that most SMNs are using staves with DMG ratings lower than some daggers is what leads to these misconceptions. If BLM got better than D skill in scythe and access to all the same scythes as DRK, they wouldn't be terrible at their melee swings either.

[Leonlionheart]

You ignored my comment :[

Let's just to some comparisons by eye-balled observations anyone can make against two non-assisted Empyrean classes.

DRK, which has been stated to be one of the worst in Abyssea (although personally I don't agree)
and SMN.

DRK using Redemption, because we all know Caladbolg is beastly so this would get my point out more.
SMN using Hvergelmir.

DRK: 25% true haste in gear easily, along with 15% DA and 2% TA. Capped accuracy, gets to use RCB or STP food.
SMN: Zelus (8) +Goliard (4)+ Ninurta (6)+ Nashira Hands (1)+ Nashira Legs (2)+ Nashira Feet (1)= 22% in gear, losing tons of needed accuracy, since SMN won't actually be capped without the use of food.

DRK: 25% JA haste 60% of the time (assuming no recast merits). (something like 72% of the time with merits)
SMN: 15% Spell Haste all of the time. Not bad.

DRK: Capable of 6hit without /sam. Roughly 25 seconds for 100% TP.
SMN: Gets a 9hit :\ Roughly 37 seconds for 100%, you'll be saving for 300% to keep your great aftermath. Probably. Either way it doesn't matter since I'll just assume you both always have aftermath (DRK will assuming DA or TA procs), and SMN WS doesn't even do damage. Oh, and this is assuming 100% accuracy, which SMN doesn't easily get.

DRK: Crits doing probably 600 normally and ODD for 1.2k+. Probably a lot more, just saying what my WAR usually does. DRK is actually hitting faster than SMN with Last Resort up, and Crits will probably be more like 800 and 1.6k with Souleater.
SMN: Crits doing 300~400 (roughly what a MNK will be doing per hit with impetus up lol) ODD for 700~900. A SMN's Avatar is doing probably like 120 normal, and maaaybe 300 damage crits. They don't get your gear haste however. If Garuda ever dies, you have to stop and recast too, where as DRK doesn't actually need it's spells.

Here's the kicker:
DRK: A good quietus can do upwards of 3k damage. Every ->25<- seconds.
SMN: 45 seconds to do 4k Predator Claws, which you have to switch out all of your gear to do. More like 3k on NMs, where as Quietus scales better on tougher mobs.

DRK is doing nearly the same spike damage nearly twice as fast, and it's hits are doing twice as much at the same speed.

SMN is awful.

[Alhanelem]

losing tons of needed accuracy, since SMN won't actually be capped without the use of food.

Nonsense.B skill + merits gives you plenty enough accuracy for ordinary stuff. Then, in Abyssea, your DEX is ridiculously boosted, giving you more accuracy.

Oh, and this is assuming 100% accuracy,

Accuracy caps at 95%.
Souleater has a 6 min recast.
Last resort is not active 100% of the time.

SMN: 45 seconds to do 5k Heavenly Strike, which you have to switch out all of your gear to do. More like 3k on NMs, where as Quietus scales better on tougher mobs.

You don't do heavenly strike. You do Predator Claws. Which can easily do 8k or more with a DD atma set.

SMN is awful.

You are awful. You don't even know what you're talking about? Why would I build a DD setup and use heavenly strike (which isn't going to do 5k damage in a DD setup anyway)? You also fail to factor in the avatar's DoT, which brings the SMN's total DoT in line with the DRK if not past it. If worse comes to worse, can DRKs pet with a kite or immediately adapt to a totally different strategy if the situation demands it? No. All DRK can do is kill shit. SMN can do a lot more than that.

[Leonlionheart]

Nonsense.B skill + merits gives you plenty enough accuracy for ordinary stuff. Then, in Abyssea, your DEX is ridiculously boosted, giving you more accuracy.

Accuracy caps at 95%.
Souleater has a 6 min recast.
Last resort is not active 100% of the time.

You don't do heavenly strike. You do Predator Claws. Which can easily do 8k or more with a DD atma set.

You are awful. You don't even know what you're talking about? Why would I build a DD setup and use heavenly strike (which isn't going to do 5k damage in a DD setup anyway)? You also fail to factor in the avatar's DoT, which brings the SMN's total DoT in line with the DRK if not past it. If worse comes to worse, can DRKs pet with a kite or immediately adapt to a totally different strategy if the situation demands it? No. All DRK can do is kill shit. SMN can do a lot more than that.

Heavenly Stike was a typo broseph. And I did factor in avatar's DoT, their DoT just sucks.

Even still, we're talking about DoT, not kiting.

EDIT: Pics of 8k or it didn't happen.
Edit2: Used 100% accuracy to level the playing field.