sadly GM's appear to have dropped the ball

[Finuve]

all rules are fair, just like all laws are fail, follow them completely without disregard, anything under the law or rules is always justified logically

[HFX7686]

But minus making the content NM specifically exclusive to the popping alliance, the NM was _NEVER_ theirs to begin with, and neither was their pop.

Uh, if the mob is red to you then it is your mob. That's at the absolute bottom of basic game mechanics.

[Karbuncle]

Then it's similarly not against the rules for me to do anything in my power to ensure that NM goes white if I wish to steal it from you. Two can play the loophole game, and you don't want me playing that loophole game.

Actually, You're wrong.

If you're going to whine and complain, you should at least try to educate yourself on the ToS.

Performing Actions which lead to the mob going white (I.E, If you had a PLD cure your tank, then spam abilities on himself to get the NM to chase him, and then run out of range of you guys causing disengage and it going white).

That is "Stealing". It is 100% Against the ToS. There is no gray area about that.

Sitting by, watching a mob, and claiming it if the party wipes, while something i would not do, Is not stealing. The mob is white by that groups own actions, not mine = "Fair" Game.

If i cause it to go white through my Actions = Stealing

------------

To the guy @ top of page. I can tell you're being sarcastic. But Really? We're not going to go into a "Holy crusade" Against SE's ToS because some people apparently don't know how to keep a mob claimed. Some laws are stupid, some rules are stupid, sadly though, some rules we must accept. Its their game and their rules. They could revise them though,

so

If you feel that watching someone fight an NM without taking any action to cause your mob going white or for your group to forget basic understanding of Claim mechanics should be bannable, ask the reps to do so, because thats whats happening here x.x

People are losing claim because its more important for them to run out of range of a 200 dmg nuke, or kite blindly in to the sunset when Crion uses Charmga, instead of stopping and taking an Action on a mob to keep the vultures from getting their meal ticket.

I hate people who sit around waiting for someone to wipe, I hate vultures, they're literally the worst type of player in the game. but really, the best thing you, and i, can do to waste their time is learn how hate mechanics work. Make sure you keep your mob claimed. Its not hard, It just requires you to focus on a fight.

People complain Abyssea is too easy, so giving yourself something to focus on shouldn't be hard?

While all 4 of you may riot for a change to claiming (Well, If Starcade goes it'll only be 1 because he'd probably kill you all cause he assumes you're cheating IRL for getting there before him), but it seems like production time they could save for something that really needs to be fixed.

This is another "problem" that can be easily solved by players taking simple precautions. I hate Vultures, but when it comes to my group, they never get a meal.

[Starcade]

Uh, if the mob is red to you then it is your mob. That's at the absolute bottom of basic game mechanics.

No it's not -- not without some exclusivity that no one else can ever get the mob.

Let me give you another example of kill stealing to explain how this operates:

I -aga a series of mobs for low-level FoV. I can only red one of them at a time -- a common griefing tactic is to steal the others. That is no more nor less a kill steal than direct actions to "turn a mob 'white'".

If the current apparent "rules" stand, NONE OF THE MOBS WERE EVER MINE. The entire concept of "claim" is, in fact, an obsolete anachronism, because all it takes is a cooperative GM to basically steal anything you want.

Besides, if the NM is not exclusive to the popping alliance to the end (be it victory or despawn), then the pop belongs to the world, not to the individual alliance -- and, hence, should pop unclaimed.

[HFX7686]

No it's not -- not without some exclusivity that no one else can ever get the mob.

Let me give you another example of kill stealing to explain how this operates:

I -aga a series of mobs for low-level FoV. I can only red one of them at a time -- a common griefing tactic is to steal the others. That is no more nor less a kill steal than direct actions to "turn a mob 'white'".

If the current apparent "rules" stand, NONE OF THE MOBS WERE EVER MINE. The entire concept of "claim" is, in fact, an obsolete anachronism, because all it takes is a cooperative GM to basically steal anything you want.

Besides, if the NM is not exclusive to the popping alliance to the end (be it victory or despawn), then the pop belongs to the world, not to the individual alliance -- and, hence, should pop unclaimed.

Read the post above yours. It replies to this in full.

[Starcade]

Actually, You're wrong.

If you're going to whine and complain, you should at least try to educate yourself on the ToS.

Performing Actions which lead to the mob going white (I.E, If you had a PLD cure your tank, then spam abilities on himself to get the NM to chase him, and then run out of range of you guys causing disengage and it going white).

And that's just as legal as the current situation -- and would openly be a proposed course of action by any alliance seeking a loophole to steal NMs.

That is "Stealing".

So is the original thing we're arguing -- the point is, if the original scenario is not "Stealing", "Griefing", "Monopolization", AND "Denial of Enjoyment", then neither is taking direct actions to ensure the similar result.

You can't have what is a logical contradiction. If the pop is theirs, the NM is theirs -- absolute and to the end. NO UNAUTHORIZED PARTY CAN CLAIM IT.

If a person can take the mob when unclaimed, the pop was never the original player's, and neither was the NM ever his or hers either! It belonged, then, to the world, and any person can take any action to attempt to disrupt the original player.

This was how HNMs worked pre-bots, from what I've been told. Someone would claim it, and everyone else would rush in and spam the person to disconnection. How that is any different than claiming a lost NM, I have no idea?

If the NM goes yellow, THE FIGHT IS OVER AND THE PARTY HAS LOST.

But that's BOTH halves of it.

Sitting by, watching a mob, and claiming it if the party wipes, while something i would not do, Is not stealing. The mob is white by that groups own actions, not mine = "Fair" Game.

If i cause it to go white through my Actions = Stealing

You're taking someone else's content in both cases. It's stealing in either both cases or neither -- pick one.

[Karbuncle]

And that's just as legal as the current situation -- and would openly be a proposed course of action by any alliance seeking a loophole to steal NMs.

I don't understand half of what you say. But i'll be generic.

Performing Actions to cause a mob to go white = Stealing. NO gray area. So you're wrong.
Watching a Party wipe and claiming a white mob that is white because of that parties actions and not you're own = Fair by the ToS.

So is the original thing we're arguing -- the point is, if the original scenario is not "Stealing", "Griefing", "Monopolization", AND "Denial of Enjoyment", then neither is taking direct actions to ensure the similar result.

You can't have what is a logical contradiction. If the pop is theirs, the NM is theirs -- absolute and to the end. NO UNAUTHORIZED PARTY CAN CLAIM IT.

Unfortunately, While I might actually agree with this, SE doesn't seem too. The only thing I'm defending is the fact, despite if we kick or stamp our feet or cry on the forum, SE has deemed "White = Fair game" (Probably because they're under-staffed with GMs or just too lazy to care about taking actions against people these days). So the only thing we can do is keep our mob claimed.

Do I hate Vultures who sit around waiting to take a mob when it goes white? More then you can imagine
Is it Legal by the ToS? Yes, Saddly.
Do my mobs go white? No. I educate myself.

If a person can take the mob when unclaimed, the pop was never the original player's, and neither was the NM ever his or hers either! It belonged, then, to the world, and any person can take any action to attempt to disrupt the original player.

This is such a devastating attack on logic that i can't even begin to comprehend your thought patterns. I don't think i can type slowly and relate it to reading. So read this slowly.

Pop items are ownership of the Initial claim on the Enemy. From this point on it is in the players own hands to keep the mob claimed them. Think of it like buying an Ice Cream. When you buy the Ice cream, It is now yours, But it is in your own hands to keep it from Melting. The Store isn't going to refrigerate it for you. You have to refrigerate it yourself.

this comparison is hard to explain, But in this light. Buying Ice-cream = Initial ownership of edible product, after that its up to you to keep it "Edible" (not melted) (read; NM Claimed). Sorry if that comparison is hard to understand, its the best i could think of off the top of my head.

Either way, Your pop represents Initial rights to the mob. From this point on its up to the "owner" to keep said product/mob his own.

This was how HNMs worked pre-bots, from what I've been told. Someone would claim it, and everyone else would rush in and spam the person to disconnection. How that is any different than claiming a lost NM, I have no idea?

This is a grief tactic, Once again, Players are forcing a certain outcome. This is Cheating. IF you had proof of this, This is against the TOS. There is no Gray area.

Waiting for a mob to go white = Fair, Performing actions which cause said mob to go white (Force-DC'ing someone <i've never heard of this>, Cure-boming then JA spam, Causing Spike Flail, Etc) = STEALING.

If the NM goes yellow, THE FIGHT IS OVER AND THE PARTY HAS LOST.

But that's BOTH halves of it.

If the NM goes White, By the initial owners fault. Its not "Over" persay, he has the same chance to claim the NM as other people in range (more so, He only needs 1 Action, other players need 2).

I don't know what you're trying to argue because you're so confusing. But I feel i should repeat myself. Claiming a NM that has gone white by no ones actions but the initial claimer is "Fair" by the ToS. Causing the NM to go white by any outside actions then claiming is Stealing the mob, and IS against the ToS.

You're taking someone else's content in both cases. It's stealing in either both cases or neither -- pick one.

Unfortunately for you, This world can exist in "Black and White". there is no "ITS ONE OR OTHER BRO". Your logic again has failed.

Stealing = Performing Actions which cause a NM to go white then claiming it yourself.

"Fair game" = Waiting for the mob to go unclaimed by the original groups own actions, or lack there of.

Do i hate vultures? yah, But really, According to FFXI ToS they are in the right. Maybe this should be changed. But i don't see them revising the ToS this late in the game, especially with obviously understaffed GMs (maybe they're not, But i know 9/10 If i make a GM call I get an auto-response, No one even bother talking to me anymore).

If you feel they were griefing you by watching you fight, You can try to report for that.

Edit: I keep using the word "Cheating" instead of "Stealing" a lot. You're rubbing off on me.

[Khiinroye]

You keep saying content monopolization/denial. I do not think those words mean what you think they mean. I have never heard of anyone going to pop something and getting a message saying "YOU ARE NOT IN XXX LS. CONTENT DENIED." message. There is no "monopoly" because anyone can pop a mob at any time that the ??? is up. If you see someone who you think might be a vulture and you know that your group is likely to let the mob go white, you are not obligated to pop the mob at that particular point in time. You are also free to pop the mob, and maintain claim the entire time, denying the vulture the chance to take the mob from you.

You are entitled to the initial claim, and are entitled to the mob for as long as you maintain claim. Most groups manage to maintain claim until the mob is defeated, and thus there is no denial or monopolization. If you make a mistake and lose claim, then it become free content to everyone, even the initial party. Once the mob is claimed to someone, they have the exclusive right to the mob until they lose claim out of their own mistakes or kill the mob.

Anyone is allowed to take a mob that has gone white from the initial claimer's mistakes from anyone else. If you take the proper actions to maintain claim, nobody can take the mob from you.

My linkshell's policy is to not claim unless there is a full wipe (AoA zombie tactics counts as a full wipe) or if the other group is known for kill stealing.

Here's an example: a kid is on a swing. He has the right to use that swing while he is on it. But if he launches himself off it, and some other kid catches the swing and gets on, then the first kid no longer has the swing. If the first kid lands and gets back on it before another kid gets on, then the first kid once again has the right to the swing. This is not swing monopolization or denial of enjoyment by the second kid, it is simply taking a free swing and putting it to use.

Another RL analogy (better than the mugging one): You are in Times Square with a nice new $100 bill. You leave it on a bench and go to the bathroom or some such, and come back to find that someone took it while you were gone. Appropriate action would have been to put it in your pocket and take it with you. The DC causing a claim loss would be like the wind blowing it out of your hand and you losing it while just sitting there staring, instead of chasing after it (pulling hate and moving the mob). Someone taking action on you to cause the mob to turn white would be the equivalent of getting mugged.

I wouldn't mind seeing a week or two where mobs instantly despawn when claim is lost (not on idle, on lost claim). All these "somebody stole my mob!" threads would become "my mob depopped, FIX NOW!" threads. (lolYilbegan)

[Kya]

once more this is pointless post over nm that Charm ppl some one Delete this post now >.> going same way as other post about new way how mobs should be calm

[Hoshi]

once more this is pointless post over nm that Charm ppl some one Delete this post now >.> going same way as other post about new way how mobs should be calm

There you go with that chamomile tea again...