Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

[Fiarlia]

Oh, and let me clarify something before it's mentioned. I know that there are not two levels of skill with players; only utterly stupid versus only completely awesome.

My definition of a good player, at least in terms of my above post, is anyone who does not fall into the stupid category. An average player may not be as good as a super hardcore elitist, but will still have the mental capacity to read some stuff on the wiki, or ask friends, and perhaps even peruse a few forums for the general gist of what they should be doing. Their in game performance may not wow you, but it certainly won't disgust you either. They may not know the formulas and be able to tell you what pDIF even means, or begin to calculate when their fSTR is capped, but they're certainly not borderline chin-nibblers.

These people, despite not necessarily being the cream of the crop, are more than able and competent enough to play their jobs well, and gear fairly well.

[rog]

I did all my job to 75 pre-abyssea release, and to be honest there not much difference, when you level job like BLM (let say the hardest way) then you have to buy spell/gear/song and so on, that you might never use again at lv75 (or let now say 90) I could have say something different back in the time where CoP was still caped, but is not anymore the case.

To say someone will play better just because he did from lv1 to 90 the hard way is just wrong, i have just too many job to keep track of all new JA/Magic/strategy etc, no matter how good i was with all job 75, it worth nothing anymore for me since every job have a different play style since abyssea got introduced. So what i mean is i had to relearn everything for all job, so i am not more expert then any new player rushing his job to 90. (i still have more general experience, but what that worth since everyone interest is only abyssea now... And who say what i learned will really apply for lv99 release...)

Just a quick example, Look at warrior, they fell cleave 40 mob at the same time (no way you going to learn how to do this pre-90). Do they really need to know how to SC with other mele job? Or learn how to Trick attack tank, so why even bother anymore with these detail. For WHM you don't really need cure bomb everyone for 2,000 hours to learn the job... For RDM job, well is kinda messed up for them, they just have too many play style. Anyway i am not going to talk about all job, but in general what i learned pre-abyssea and what it is now is 2 different world.

Knowing how to 1shot pets is very important to a blm too.

[Chaani]

His comment runs under the assumption that the people who would read up on their jobs and be able to apply said knowledge within the game would be the ones likely to skillup their weapons, get the spells, skill their magic, understand how to skillchain and magic bust and so on. He does not in any way say you learn what you need to by leeching. He merely contests that you don't need to do a normal party in order to learn (and apply) those skills or tactics either.

I completely agree with this. Those that take the time to learn their jobs are going to regardless of which path they take. My roommate, who plays, leveled warrior casually with my in-game friends and I during the heyday of toau. It wasn't until we brought her to our small number Dynamis runs of between 4-6 people that she admittedly said she saw what her role was, that being co-tanking and switching to tanking if a rogue statue is running around. Also, generally learning to be aware of where everyone is, which groupings of mobs are asleep and things to do when routine breaks down.

That kind of strategy and awareness isn't going to be learned fighting crabs and colibri.

Abyssea has nothing to do with anything with regards to the average skill level of the player base. The biggest component of skill in FFXI is related to paying attention, either you're going to, or you're not, Abyssea did not change this.

[Sama]

For bad players they simply DON'T deserve the fast xp just like every other hard working players.

[Randwolf]

First job is actually new, and was tolerable. second-tenth job were leveled to help in endgame/to kill time between other things/etc.

It's one thing doing something the first, second, maybe even third time. By the time you get to the 10th+ job, that 5k/hr simply doesn't cut it anymore.

This is probably the statement I most agree with.

I think if new players were forced at gunpoint to stay in the game until they finished 1 job to at least 75 the old way, they might get a greater appreciation for the evolution of the game. They might gain some of the work ethic involved in keeping your sub leveled, working to get your gear, LFP for hours or putting together your own party, cursing S/E when 100 Fists was 100 Whiffs pre-sushi, fighting to get a claim on Moon Pass spawn, traveling all over the world to find the best Exp spot that wasn't completely over-camped, dying to idiots who pulled trains to zone and closed down the Nest, and so on. However, since they can just quit, it probably wouldn't work. And, I don't want to go back to the old way of leveling jobs myself just so that the new players have to go through it too. It was hell. Glad I did it. But, I don't need to relive the pain to remember all the lessons I learned during that climb.

[Ilax]

Knowing how to 1shot pets is very important to a blm too.

God i loved that part on BLM no worry, it was also awesome to MB every battle back in the old day, kinda sad that many will never experience that, but i have more bad memory back in that time then good one, like LFG on my BLM 10h and have to run @ Sky to get tell sorry the PT disbanded lol oh well, i can't say the Abyssea experience is that bad, not at all

[Bahamut_Norm]

His comment runs under the assumption that the people who would read up on their jobs and be able to apply said knowledge within the game would be the ones likely to skillup their weapons, get the spells, skill their magic, understand how to skillchain and magic bust and so on. He does not in any way say you learn what you need to by leeching. He merely contests that you don't need to do a normal party in order to learn (and apply) those skills or tactics either.

I for one, agree with this. If you've been playing the game for a while you should be well aware that there were plenty of level 75's that were horrible. Even before the introduction of Level Sync. Even before the introduction of Campaign. And also before ToAU was introduced.

I agree, to this much, to an extent. Someone who's chronically on one extreme end of the spectrum will likely stay there. However, people are not made of extremes.

One of his main points is that gimps have always existed and will always exist. The way they level has zero impact on this. An idiot that whacks away at Robber Crabs or Colibri to 75 (90) will still be an idiot. An idiot that keys chests to 90 will still be an idiot. Many other people are trying to argue that Abyssea has produced more idiots, which they're mostly attributing to key leeching. The people who are smart will pretty much always be smart at their job.

This is where we diverge. The real issue up for debate that I and obviously others strongly believe (and I realize this is a subjective personal belief that neither of us can provide any evidence for) that the current situation is much more conducive to, well, the furtherance of idiots.

You cannot seriously try and tell me that practice of leveling does not have some positive impact in the development of skill in an averagely skilled player. You just can't, it assumes people are incapable of learning.

Furthermore, do not even dare attempt a package-deal fallacy here. Just because some gimps will always be gimps does not mean that adjustments to game balance and difficulty encouraging players to develop skill has no impact on any of them.

None of the jobs in the game are hard, and any reasonable person will be able to properly gear their job and play it regardless of how they got it to level 90. The smart people I'm talking about are likely to understand the value of having their spells, skilling their weapons and understanding how to properly time shadows and/or other spells.

Again, another bunch of fallacies. No, jobs themselves are not hard. Situations in which skill is required to play said jobs correctly can be hard. Practice improves this skill level in reasonably skilled players. Are you trying to tell me that there is nothing to be gained from practice?

Making people level the "original way" will serve as nothing more than a timesink and/or cockblock (if people abhor the original way of leveling) if the player in question is good.

Then why even play the game at that point? What would said player even be seeking to accomplish? Compare;

I got my PLD to 99, hooray!

To:

There, I finally leeched PLD to 99. Now I'll do BLM.

Doesn't sound very rewarding, does it? Why even bother making it a game? Seriously, this isn't a rhetorical question. Why play a game if you don't actually want to be challenged on some level? Guitar hero wouldn't be popular if you could win just by pushing the start button.

Sure, it doesn't remove all challange from the game, but you sure can't deny it removes a portion of it. The significance, being very relative person to person.

...If it takes 18 terrible players to do what a group of smart players could do with 2-6, then hey, at least they can get some shit done for themselves.

Agreed, but not relevant to my point.

Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The problem is the players themselves. As has been mentioned before, this can be solved by playing with people you know and trust, or finding people that can trust, and get to know them.

Correct, Abyssea leeching is not the problem. The imbalance it creates is. Trust is totally irrelevant to my point.

These are the people trying to "force" their ideas and ways upon others, offering up whatever explanation they can can up with, however ridiculous and/or stupid it might be to make it happen and make it seem like a legitimate concern or issue.

That's a matter of perspective. What you call forcing, I call game balance. The historically carefully maintained game balance is one of the largest appeals of FFXI and one of the highest valued by it's player base. The sheer number of these topics should be a clear demonstration of that.

Meanwhile, most everyone in the other camp (the people that like or support leeching) are not arguing that it should be the only option.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

In fact, many people (myself included) are saying that there is an issue with exp outside Abyssea, even with the new upgrades...Hell, I might even do it once in a while for fun. Nearly everyone arguing against the people that want to stop Abyssea leeching has said the same.

So you haven't actually experienced the changes from the update, but you believe it's not enough anyway?

I don't want to take away from others enjoyment of the game... so why are they trying to do it to me (and by extension, the others who like Abyssea leeching)? Everyone should be able to level the way they choose, putting a stop to Abyssea leeching is not conducive to this idea.

Do not appeal to consequences, no one is trying to suck the fun out of the game for you. They are in favor of maintaining game balance.

Any anger or arguing you're seeing from "this side" of the fence is only shooting down the reasons people are asking for Abyssea leeching to stop, because any reason that has been offered is complete bullshit, as well as any reason I can come up with.

Really?

The only valid argument I'm seeing against Abyssea leeching is that these bad players will have more jobs at max level.

[Dominaria]

Abyssea is fine for thepeople that like it, but im tired of trying to make parties and being told "no ty, i'm waiting for an abyssea invite." I haven't had a regular party in months and I never get to leech, if anything i'm ready to quit since i didn't join an mmo to play by myself.

[Greatguardian]

The only sure way to get an Abyssea leech spot is to make the party. That's all I did when I took RDM 37-90. If you need advice on what jobs to look for and monsters to hunt while in Abyssea, I'll be free to answer any questions you have. However, you can't expect people to pick up a random leech these days. Key-mastering is fulltime job when you take into account the fact that the key-master/Alliance leader will also have to keep an eye on their party at all times and, more than likely, will be finding replacements for half the people who leave.

[Ilax]

So let say the {Monk} {Key} is an idot at playing his job correctly and the other guy leveling is an idot to not be able built his own PT without a Key whore member

Just messing, but ya, is easy to be stereotype like this, i just saw too many ppl leech they job and fail badly, as i saw the same number of player fail without leeching any of they job, just take dynamis, i see people doing the same mistake even after 6yr long. Some learn some just never learn. I doubt it change much if they leech or not.

Take my ninja, i was NIN main for 3yr long doing Sky, CoP etc, now that make a good 3yr that job is retired. I played back the job form 75 to 90 just to have it available just in case someday i have back some interest into the job, because yes to me that job is not anymore fun to play, to not say imo is a fail job lol, but wait a min don't jump on my word till i am done explaining, 2 of my friend did level Ninja lately, and they actually finish the job in 3 day max >.> Both of them... And guess what? They are actually doing better then me on everything with that job, is like they are always been playing the job since game is out, and the job is not as fail as i was thinking.

So ya, i am hella happy to have both of them as ninja in my LS, is funny also because one of them used to be a very good/skilled BLM, and his blm isnt anymore anything amazing, once again he get outbeated by the new wave of BLM that did leech.

All this to say, you might only look the negative side of leeching, but there more then that. How many was not looking into another job just due to all the work into leveling the job. Personally i did level all job back in the time for one reason... Was not to brag about maat cap or brag about the number of job i had, but just to have an overview of what all job can offer. It helped me to lead and understand more the mechanic of the game. Its also made me understand the mistake my friend was doing with they job, and i got able to lead them, because no matter what wiki say, is not always how we are playing.

Too many take wiki for the ultimate reference, i can't tell you how many time i saw wiki wrong, like one i can remember right now is the KS99, i failed all KS99 till i find my own way, i can easy explain why too, wiki is stereotype guide line, you can see it more then ever now with abyssea, according to wiki a MNK + WHM can solo everything... Ya that might be true for some WHM and MNK, but not mean all mnk and whm, and what happen when you try apply they strategy with only the WHM? Is the solution to tell your member i am sorry go level MNK bc wiki say so? Imo that even more retarded then actual people that leech they job.

In the end all this is irrelevant, point of all the garbage i said resume to: An idiot stay an idiot, and is for sure not going to change anything how fast or easy people can reach 90, but might just give a better chance to someone to discover a hidden talent. Who know maybe i was just an idiot Ninja?