Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[Arlan]

I would like to clarify my position.

If someone is close to their level and levels up with an exp scroll, technically that would be cheating, but not the end of the world.

If someone used exp scrolls to get an entire, smaller early level, that's not all that big of the deal. If someone played all but one level of 1-90, and know what they're doing, I scarecly have a problem with that.

It's when people who are in an area that's designed for 75+ are not getting an inconsequential amount of exp, not just one small level, but every single level from 30-90 that I wonder if they don't have to fight, why should anybody?

If someone goes afk for longer than X amount of time, people do complain. The amount of X is an arbitarary application of the what cheating is. SE can't fix that, but players can, and players do with a swift kick.

A rule must be absolute and clear--but one must bebe reasonble in it's application. If a cop gives you a ticket for going 1 mile over the speed limit, the judge could just throw it out, because no one is perfect, and it's not a major violation. If someone skips a step in a staircase that's 100,000 steps long, and the goal is to get to the top stepping on each step as a rule, some judges might throw the entire race out because 1 step of 100,000 steps was missed. But in the context of FFXI, if someone skips 1 level of 90, that's not a big deal, as said. It's unreasonable to say well, if you skip 1, why not all of them? Because people aren't perfect, but just because a judge lets it slide when you're going 1 miles over the limit doesn't mean you shouldn't be fined for going over by 10. It is arbitrary, but it is also reasonable. The definition of cheating is absolutely in no way arbitaray; the application is, and one must be reasonable in those applications. Both being reasonable with when someone is cheating only a little, but also reasonable with when someone is cheating a lot.

Then I guess a lot of people love cheating then.
Cause almost everyone in the allience Im with that I got to leach in abyssea didnt have a problem with me.
and those who did got kicked.

Majority dont care cause they want to get their own thing.
Only minority care but why listen to minority when they want to try to control and limit the majority from having their own ways of fun?

Leaching to lvl90 and playing ur job from there is a preference.
I prefer to learn to play my job starting from lvl68. Not lvl1 or lvl30.
So I leach to lvl68 and start playing my job there.

You mind your business and play how you want but dont act like everyone else has to play it the same way you do.


lol

[Ravenmore]

Thing is people do exp scrolls to skip ahead many levels. you can get a level a week if you luck out on them till about 25 then it takes a good chunk off tnl throw in Street sweeper that you can do 7 times a week theres lots of free exp to be had.

[Panthera]

It's not as simple as it appears, because the implicit rule is that "you live, you die" - therefore by "cheating death" you are breaking an implicit rule. This example is misleading. You are literally cheating death - the system of dying - and so you are not extending the meaning logically, ie making it figurative.

What you are making is an assertion. You assert that gaining exp in any way but personally vanquishing a mob is "cheating" - literally against the game's rules. If you don't mean this literally, then you are using it figuratively, implying that you are depriving yourself of a positive experience, which is in itself an assertion. If you mean cheating literally, you are creating your own arbitrary definition. If you mean it figuratively, then you are being misleading with your language because cheating has connotations of legality and the breaking of a system of order.

The example was imperfect. Let me clarify what I was getting at.

There were a few--and by no means all--that couldn't apply words because they didn't understand their import. "Cheating death" is abstract. Literal or no, people routinely say,"SE says it's not against the rules end of story" when there's more to it than that. They use the simplest, easiest-to-get meaning, when more abstract meanings, such as "evading" are generally "evaded," either deliberately, or not. And that particular examples and analogies are evaded, I find very telling.

[hiko]

Thank you very much for asking, Aliekber.


There are four relationships: mutualistic, commensal, parasitic, and competition.

Commensal is where one benefits, and the other isn't helped or harmed. This isn't cheating.

Mutualistic is where both individuals concerned benefit. Both get exp. Nothing cheating about this.

XP cleave leeching is commensal leecher benefits, cleaver/pullers aren't harmed:
=> cleave leeching isn't cheating
if you paid your spot it is mutualist (cleaver gain gils)
key whoring is mutualist: key whore use cruor but get xp, others fight/pull/buff/heal but doesn't use cruor

[Byrth]

First off, how you get xp doesn't matter anymore. XP is a convenient byproduct of other productive things. I haven't "gone out and xp'd" and I'm something like 5 merits from re-capped.

Secondly, in Abyssea it really only takes two good DDs to out-kill the speed at which it is possible to pull. For instance, once upon a time I had myself (DNC/NIN with Twashtar) and a friend (DRG/SAM with OAT polearm) at Dolls with four pullers. Bard and White Mage as support, then leechers. The thing limiting our xp/hr wasn't how much damage we could do, it was basically respawn rate and pulling time even with four people multi-pulling. There's always room for some leechers, unless half of your party is leechers in disguise.

[Korpg]

People don't join the army with one physical and that's it. They're doing push-ups and ALOT more every single day in the army. It's called exercising your job.

Sorry, I have to point out this.

It has been proven that boot camp (basic training if you want to get technical) is not just a bunch of exercise. Its basically breaking the person down to their basic components, and rebuilding them into something the government wants, a soldier that would die for their cause. Its more of a psychological exercise than it is physical. Your example is horrible, because it basically proving the point of your opponents. You take a person with no strength, and you build them into a superman in 6-8 weeks while obeying your ever command.

Which is a shortcut, which is, by definition, a cheat according to you and your sole supporter.

[Korpg]

I have a question for the anti-abyssea leech people.

I'm currently doing ice TotM staff (ya ya, I know, I'm gimp for not having it done by now, bite me).

I'm on Trial 1708. Thats the "kill 200 bees with 150+ ice damage at the end"

Now, I'm in Wajorm linking 6 bees together, nuking them down to 0 with Blizzaga III at the end, and collecting 6 kills at once. According to your logic, that is a shortcut, and shortcuts are bad. You would rather have me kill each bee individually, effectively doubling the 3 hours this would take to 6 hours worth of work. Why?

Also, while I was doing the "kill 150 arcana mobs with 50+ ice damage" part, I did snolls in Ugly range. During ice weather, snow geodes dropped. Now I have 15 snow geodes for my final trial. Since I have my final trial done already, is that considered cheating since I went out of order and/or did 2 trials at the same time, which the game "intended" people to do 1 trial at a time?

What is your response to that?

[RaenRyong]

I would like to clarify my position.

If someone is close to their level and levels up with an exp scroll, technically that would be cheating, but not the end of the world.

It's not though. Technically implies an exact definition, and the exact (literal) definition of cheating is an activity against a given set of rules. The rules suggest you are able to level up in any way which involves you gaining experience.

I think you have to drop the word "cheating" and just say "I don't like it when people level up outside of exping", because there is no justification for it otherwise.

[Korpg]

Newcomers have the chance to circumvent 80% of the games content and skip basically everything else, going straight to Abyssea. I say 80% because all that's needed is to get a few friends to farm items for the Limit Break quests. And 20% allotted to LB quests is very generous.

Wait, is this your argument? Because Abyssea gives a chance for a level 30 newcommer to get to 90 as soon as possible, they can't do any of the stuff that everyone else had to do pre-abyssea?

What are they really missing?

Outdated and horrible-to-wear/use Artifacts?
Meaningless quests with no real rewards?
NMs that does nothing (looking at you Mimas)?
Missions that they can do at a stronger level by themselves compared to a level 30 perspective of the same fights?

You really think that they are missing anything? Do you really want them to go thru years of torment because you went thru the same thing? For what? Because you feel justified in doing the same thing everyone did at that time?

Come on man, stop being selfish. Telling everyone they are cheating and/or demanding this level cap will cause new players to LEAVE which is what we don't want in this game at its stage of life cycle.

[Korpg]

and yeah, I'm still reading past this thread. So far its a great read, many lulz were had and all that.