Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[Romanova]

I thought about this, and I realized, you know it doesn't matter what panthera thinks what cheaters are because either way he just proves the point that leeching is ok. Why?

Let's for a moment think that panthera's definition is correct.

I think it's safe to say 100% of the ffxi population are cheaters.

You can't tell me a player has never at least done one of:

1. afked to use the bathroom and the party decided to keep fighting and killed a mob while you were afk.

2. got a xp scroll whether from an escort quest/dynamis/etc. and used it on another job than the one they were on.

3. Did nyzul isle and ran to a teleport while the rest of the party finished off the objective to save on time.

4. Got powerleveled by a bard/rdm/whm while in a 6 member pt.

I can't believe anyone didn't fall under any 4 of those (especially 1).

So basically we're all cheaters.

Which means, cheating doesn't matter because we all do it and SE doesn't do anything about it. You are pointing fingers while being also at fault in some form of "cheating".

Just like "leechers" lessen the "value" of panthera's accomplishments of hitting 90. Having everyone, including panthera, cheat lessens the strength of that word, and makes it not matter.

We're all cheaters, in the same way we are all humans. And because of that, it means that leeching doesn't matter anyway.

[Chocobits]

Guys guys lol. You're feeding the troll. While Akujima actually BELIEVED the tyrannical drivel spewing out of his mouth, Panthera is just trolling. Anybody that has played this game for as long as he has, and managed to get anywhere on a single job, has definitely not been practicing what they preach. Plus, most of you forget that he already said he blocked most of you, so he'll never see your responses. That's how he wins. The best thing to do is to stop responding at all. Or limit your responses to "We like leeching, and you're not a doctor."

We like leeching, and you're not a doctor.

[Ravenmore]

So if s/he can't see ours post that mean we can really make fun of them now.

[Panthera]

What I want to know is, what should players do if they're in an XP party, but they suck. Like, bad. There's one good DD, and he's decked out (Dual-Wielding an Empyrean and a Relic, +2s in all the right places, eating Red Curry, and sending memos like a boss). He's easily parsing 85% of the alliance's damage (and whether or not you want to believe this is possible, it really, really is).

Should the gimpfaces all drop party because leeching is "cheating"? Should they boot the good DD so they can do a higher percentage of the damage, and do a better job "earn"ing their XP?

Would you drop party, Panthera?

Thank you very much for asking, Aliekber.


There are four relationships: mutualistic, commensal, parasitic, and competition.

Competition is a case in which both groups are harmed: two parties in Thickets at the bottom camp. There's not enough mobs to go around for both parties to have (what was) good exp. They're cheating each other out of good exp (never mind who got their first, that they are both there is a competitive relationship).

Parasitic, aka "Leeching" is where one benefits to the detriment of the other. I'll get back to this.

Commensal is where one benefits, and the other isn't helped or harmed. Let's say someone is solo killing the Wivres, and an exp party is partying on the birds. The soloer dies. Assuming the healer has the MP to raise him if he has tons to spare such that he doesn't even need the raise MP, and Raise casts really fast as Rdm main so the time spent isn't a real sacrifice, then the Soloer benefits from the presence of the party, and the party isn't really effected one way or the other. So it's commensal. Not a perfect example, lots of ifs, but you get the idea. This isn't cheating.

Mutualistic is where both individuals concerned benefit. The War/sam hurts the mob, which the healer is unable to do, while the healer keeps the War/sam alive, or buffed, which the War/sam is unable to do. Both get exp. Nothing cheating about this.

Now, back to Parasitism. The Black Rhino is in a factual--if contested--symbiotic relationship with the Oxpecker, a kind of bird. The Bird is protected by the much larger Rhino, and the Oxpecker eats parasites on the Rhino's skin. Now, let us say that there's a bird that mimics the Oxpecker, taking advantage of its protection--but doesn't eat the parasites. The Oxpecker-Mimic takes up the space that a real Oxpecker would have, and if enough do it, no parasites get eaten at all. So, the Oxpecker-Mimic is detrimental to the Black Rhino because the Oxpecker-Mimic prevents a beneficial effect it would get with a real Oxpecker, while the Oxpecker-Mimic still benefits, and is as such, a parasite.

That said, let's go back to the question. If they all dropped and it was just this one guy, damage would drop by 15%, and it would take 15% longer to kill. They aren't contributing much, but they are contributing. This isn't actually leeching, this is [i]a very unbalanced mutualistic relationship[i], in which the effort going out is unequal, but the results coming back in is equal.

Now! Let's assume:...

That the guy who does 85% of the entire damage of the party is the leader.

We assert:...

That it is fair for him to can kick those whom he doesn't feel are contributing enough, when he could get stronger DDs elsewhere, or just not invite him in the first place. Partying is volentary; no one has to party with anyone if they don't want to. By analogy, if it's fair people get fired in real life for underperforming, it's fair to fire someone in the game for underperforming (and by the way, to answer your question more or less, I have kicked many, many people for doing just that. I wouldn't just drop, I'd kick them. And from the way you called them "gimpfaces" I assume you would do the same if you were leader, and I do not condemn you for it).

That said,

We cannot say:...

We should kick people who only do X% of the damage
when
they aren't contributing nearly as much to the fight as the strongest is (mutualism)
when we could get someone who does x+75% damage

and say:...

we shouldn't kick someone who's just chest leeching,
when
they're really not participating at all in the fight (parasitism)
when we could get a bard (or Cor, Smn, Etc) who can do double march, which does contribute to the battle, while at the same time does keymaster duties.

since:...

gimpy DDs actually contribute more to the fight than just chest leeches do

Because...

"Something" > "nothing"

Especially since

The "something" is still at least something--but isn't enough, so they are kicked.

If it's fair to kick them, it's fair not to invite them in the first place.

[Ravenmore]

I really wish I had 20 bucks to blow on D2D version of the game to make a sock so the Doctor could see it.

[Romanova]

I really wish I had 20 bucks to blow on D2D version of the game to make a sock so the Doctor could see it.

I highly doubt he put anyone on ignore, it's just an excuse to not respond. Too bad he doesn't realize that makes him look even worse because he's not defending against extremely valid points.

[Greatguardian]

Keying chests contributes more to a group than Gimp DDs.

AFK people? Contribute about as much as Gimp DDs. Effectively nothing for both of them.

Parsing 0.3% alliance damage? No, I promise you, this particular "something" is not better than nothing. When a Gimp DD consumes more resources (Cures, MP, Attention) than they are able to contribute back to the group (Damage, Kills, Pulls), they have a Negative Impact on the group.

Negative < 0.

[Ravenmore]

Guess your right Roma. Choco more I read it kinda looking like trolling but panthera could have tasted the Kool Aid.

[Sayelle]

Your understanding of what is actually contributing to an abyssea party is sadly lacking. A keymaster will provide far more to a party in terms of exp/cruor from chests and increased gold/silver lights and time extensions than a gimpy DD that can't even break 1k average ws will (and sadly there are a lot of these out there).

You say that a party should just invite a Brd/cor/smn to key chests while doing their job, but since an abyssea party really only needs 6-8 people actually involved in fighting to reach max or near max exp/hr the other people are going to be standing around twiddling there thumbs anyway, so you might as well have one of them be keymaster so the brd just has to focus on songs, or they can DD if they want since Evisceration makes Brd a semi decent DD as long as it's geared properly.

[Sesh]

they're really not participating at all in the fight (parasitism)
when we could get a bard (or Cor, Smn, Etc) who can do double march, which does contribute to the battle, while at the same time does keymaster duties.

since:...

gimpy DDs actually contribute more to the fight than just chest leeches do

Because...

"Something" > "nothing"

Ahh but you're wrong because if nobody keyed the sum total of the exp would be far less than if there is a keyer. When I fell cleave an average of 20 mobs we normally see on average 4 exp chests. So lets say the party kills 500 mobs the keyer has contributed somewhere in the ballpark of 125,000 exp to the party in total. Not to mention Gold/Silver/Ebon lights give the party more bang for their buck in the end. So you could say that easily for the keyer that they raise well over 200k (not to mention cruor) for the party just from exp boxes and gold/ebon alone.