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  1. #521
    Player Tamoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,061
    Character
    Tamoa
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    SAM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Panthera View Post
    I am in fact quite convinced that it doesn't make sense to some
    The reason it doesn't make sense is that for most people responding to you here (and I'm going to claim that goes for most people playing this game), the word cheat means you are doing something that's against the rules, or in this case, against the ToS.

    Anything else you claim to be cheating in this game, is just based on your opinion of what's right and what's wrong. Noone is doing anything wrong - as in breaking any of SE's rules - by leeching a job in Abyssea from level 30. A level 10 summoner isn't breaking any rules by having a level 90 friend do the avatar fights for them.

    You might not approve of Abyssea leeching (I don't like that word, especially since most people on a low level job in Abyssea actually do have a specific job to do, they open chests, something which benefits the whole alliance), and you might not approve of a low level summoner having a high level friend kill the avatars for them, and that's fine. But they are not breaking any rules.
    (7)
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankWustler
    In the FFXI universe, the down of Phoenix is so fine that it quickly broke down into a sort of dust. Smaller than dust, actually. A barely visible particle.

    This down was carried by the winds of Vana'diel. Some people breathed it in and contracted Phoenix Downs Syndrome. Some of those people post on this very board.

  2. #522
    Player Kimble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    817
    Character
    Jimb
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    COR Lv 99
    He did answer about Streetsweeper. It is cheating because you are not fighting anything in order to get exp.

    So, I guess if he is exping and has to AFK to use the restroom or get some food, he drops party till hes back because you know, if he isnt actively fighting the mob, he is actually cheating. I guess if the ally is fighting more then one mob, he will switch between both mobs to ensure he makes an action on both so he doesnt cheat? lol
    (7)

  3. #523
    Player Sesh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    69
    Character
    Seshamaru
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Khiinroye View Post
    Sigh.

    arbitrary
    –adjective
    1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
    2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
    3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.

    The use in question is #1. No "impulsive or irrational" anywhere near there.

    The levelling system is this:
    1-a) Get xp.
    1-b) XP can be lost if you die.
    2-a) Level up when a certain amount of xp is obtained and your level is below your level cap.
    2-b) Do not level up if your current level is equal to your level cap.

    Any restrictions you choose to place on it are arbitrary restrictions, and cannot be used to define cheating as you are doing.

    There is nothing stating how you HAVE to gain the xp. Scrolls have been in the game since the US release (I have no idea if eco warrior was there at the JP release). The purpose of these scrolls is that they provide valuable insight on the world, combat, politics, whatever that your character learns when reading them. They have a job level requirement to ensure that your character is experienced enough to understand the insights on the scroll.

    If SE wanted you to be forced to use Dominion Op xp on the job that "did the work", they could have done so. The precedent is there with campaign ops; once you meet the objective, you get the xp, and AN are given on reporting back.

    While Campaign Ops are mentioned, many, like Vanguard-X, Crimson Domino, Bridge Too Far, Street Sweeper, Steel Resolve, Magna Cache, Crystal Fist, Iron Anvil, Hawkeye, Slaughterhouse, Prying Eyes, and Cut And Cauterize do not have any combat involved. Crimson Domino sometimes even expressly forbids you to fight anything, while giving you a direct path with no aggro in some zones. Taking part in these is not cheating the leveling system.

    Stock and Awe and Materiel Storm can have combat if you farm the requested items, but the NPC says he doesn't care if you farm them or buy them off others, just bring them to him. The point is to have the items available for crafting for the war effort, not how you get them. For those two ops, its always items that can be bought on the AH, usually crafting materials.

    Hazardous Materials gives you a Silence, Amnesia, and Gravity effect, so it is more about avoiding combat. Bailey Borer can be done only attacking the Fortilace, while being out of aggro range of anything that will fight back.

    Offensive ops, defensive ops, Frozen flame, Deep Cover, Brave Dawn, and Delta Strike are the only ones that definitely involve combat.

    Keymasters are contributing; It boosts the time remaining, lights, xp, cruor, temp items, lootpool items, and key item supply of the alliance. You can't claim that buying keys using cruor obtained on another jobs is dishonest, because cruor is the gil of abyssea. It is their money, which is tied to the character, not the job. To claim otherwise is equivalent to claiming that gil earned should only be spendable on the job which earned it.

    Xp per kill scales to level, dominion ops scale to level (below 75), and boxes do not scale. If you think the way you can get xp in abyssea is not working as intended, file a bug report here (link).

    On the issue of uncapped primes avatar fights vs 20 cap prime avatar fights:
    In ye olde days, there were no lv 20 cap fights. The only way to flag the fights was to nearly cap fame in the zone (instead of lv 2 or 3, whatever it is for the mini fights). Back in those days, the avatar fights were considered hard; wipes with a full party of 75 were not that uncommon. Summoners complained that it was too hard to get their summons that way, especially if they were trying to level smn as their first main job--they were not high enough level to do the fights, did not have the gil to buy a spot, and were considered gimps with only carbuncle and spirits. To solve this, the mini fights were added, which allowed summoners to do a solo version of the fight at lv 20, with the sole reward being the ability to form a pact with the avatar. I happened to have all 6 prime avatars before the mini-fights were available; that does not mean that I took the easy way out or cheated. You don't "learn a spell" when getting a new summon, you make an agreement with the being to be summoned. The ability to call the agreement into effect requires the summoner job. Spirit pacts are slightly different in that you use a scroll rather than meet with the being in question. As such, they scrolls can only be used by summoners.
    I'm quite sure pan. will ignore this whole statement or just pull out 1 or 2 lines to take out of context to try to sound smart.
    (3)

  4. #524
    Player HFX7686's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    344
    Character
    Meare
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kimble View Post
    He did answer about Streetsweeper. It is cheating because you are not fighting anything in order to get exp.

    So, I guess if he is exping and has to AFK to use the restroom or get some food, he drops party till hes back because you know, if he isnt actively fighting the mob, he is actually cheating. I guess if the ally is fighting more then one mob, he will switch between both mobs to ensure he makes an action on both so he doesnt cheat? lol
    That's a good question.

    If your party or alliance kills a mob that you gain exp from but you do not take any actions against or cure any damage or status effects that it inflicts upon your party or alliance members, are you cheating?

    I think the answer has to obviously be yes!


    In fact, if you are a WHM and never ever fight a mob and simply cure your party members are you cheating because you are not doing any damage to the mob.
    (5)

  5. #525
    Player Sesh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    69
    Character
    Seshamaru
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    WAR Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by HFX7686 View Post
    That's a good question.

    If your party or alliance kills a mob that you gain exp from but you do not take any actions against or cure any damage or status effects that it inflicts upon your party or alliance members, are you cheating?

    I think the answer has to obviously be yes!


    In fact, if you are a WHM and never ever fight a mob and simply cure your party members are you cheating because you are not doing any damage to the mob.
    This is because Pan. believes that actions are the "currency" of MMOs. Actions of a specific job, a specific quest, or a party. When really TIME is the "currency". The people that hate Abyssea hate it because it takes people less time to do what it took them months or even years to do. They pretty much believe that if you don't spend the amount of time they do, then others are doing it completely wrong. ("cheating")

    On the other hand the majority or players with common sense realize that time spent to obtain a goal, is and should be unique to an individual players style. Time is your currency in FFXI, it is what you exchange for your goals. If someone does a quest for an exp scroll and is rewarded with EXP it does not matter what actions it took to get to that goal, it's the time spent to acquire it.
    (4)
    Last edited by Sesh; 05-26-2011 at 02:21 AM.

  6. #526
    Player Aliekber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    107
    What I want to know is, what should players do if they're in an XP party, but they suck. Like, bad. There's one good DD, and he's decked out (Dual-Wielding an Empyrean and a Relic, +2s in all the right places, eating Red Curry, and sending memos like a boss). He's easily parsing 85% of the alliance's damage (and whether or not you want to believe this is possible, it really, really is).

    Should the gimpfaces all drop party because leeching is "cheating"? Should they boot the good DD so they can do a higher percentage of the damage, and do a better job "earn"ing their XP?

    Would you drop party, Panthera?
    (3)
    Aliekber of Carbamesh
    RDM BLU SCH DRG PLD BLM NIN

  7. #527
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    211
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliekber View Post
    What I want to know is, what should players do if they're in an XP party, but they suck. Like, bad. There's one good DD, and he's decked out (Dual-Wielding an Empyrean and a Relic, +2s in all the right places, eating Red Curry, and sending memos like a boss). He's easily parsing 85% of the alliance's damage (and whether or not you want to believe this is possible, it really, really is).

    Should the gimpfaces all drop party because leeching is "cheating"? Should they boot the good DD so they can do a higher percentage of the damage, and do a better job "earn"ing their XP?

    Would you drop party, Panthera?
    I think a more valid question is what if there are people who are so gimp that they're doing craptastic damage. WS for 0, Crit for 0, 75% miss rate, etc. Should they be kicked? I mean they look like they're contributing, until you look at their damage and realize that they're not doing any.
    (2)

  8. #528
    Player scaevola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    728
    Character
    Scaevola
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    A level 30 standing around twiddling his thumbs in an Abyssea party is still marginally more useful than the 5 or so level 75 melee "contributing" by feeding TP with 5-damage hits. The gap between a 90 DD/Nuker with good atma and everybody else is so huge that everyone should knock it off with the sour grapes and admit there's no difference between a level 50 leech and a level 80 with no good atma.

    Personally, my favorite thing to do is get on a level 40 job, sub BLM or something, set Atma of Ambition, and declare myself the puller.
    (4)
    Last edited by scaevola; 05-26-2011 at 02:57 AM.

  9. #529
    Player blowfin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    440
    Character
    Blowfin
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    COR Lv 90
    A level 30 standing around twiddling his thumbs in an Abyssea party is still marginally more useful than the 5 or so level 75 melee "contributing" by feeding TP with 5-damage hits.
    Competent keymaster over useless DD any day of the week.

    Hell they should have just made it a job and allowed us to get skill ups with it. Probably as close as we`re gonna get to that `time mage` people seem to have wanted.
    (4)

  10. #530
    Player Ravenmore's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,106
    Character
    Ravenns
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Still waiting panthera. The reason way we can't learn spells on /blu is simple it woulda took SE more work. So is SE cheating since they skiped out on something that already in the game buying a scroll for you sub and using it while having the job subbed. Also whats been said about avaters, There was a time you would get laughed at if you even mention of level SMN if you didn't already have a 75. Please stop acting like you even have a clue of the game or its history. Most of us here on these boards been playing since atleast CoP while some may have came into the game when ToAU/360 was released.
    (1)

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