Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

[Romanova]

(Disclaimer: Don't agree with Panthera) However: Thanks for the idiotic post. He doesn't have max merits because he hasn't necessarily bothered to update his ffxiah.com profile, amirite?

They are more than welcome to prove otherwise.

[Khiinroye]

Your meaning of cheating ignores the meanings plural of the word cheating. You are absolutely correct that third party leveling programs are cheating, and I'm glad that you recognize that. Similarly, do-nothing leeching is cheating because the leveling doesn't represent the leech's own work. Is there really anyone who is actually in favor of that? But you were talking about keymasters, and I'll address that.

Low-level keymastering is cheating because you're not leveling up in a way specific to or supported by your job, as I've said, as well as other definitions as well, which I've also already explained. Again, just becuase you aren't cheating according to one meaning, doesn't mean you aren't cheating according to others.

You do have a reasonable, but not infallible, grasp on what cheating is conceptually. However, I never defined the term cheating. The meanings plural of the word cheating were around before I used them. According to a dictionary website:...

cheat   
[cheet] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1.to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.
2.to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.
3.to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.

I merely applied the definitions and the concepts to explain why leeching is cheating, and they're a perfect fit, if I may say. The real problem is that SE's rules for what cheating is and is not don't address what cheating really is in this context. You want to be closer to what cheating actually means, not what SE thinks it is, as they may not necessarally be close. Again, if there were a body-building competition, and for whatever reason, the use of steroids were explicity allowed, that doesn't mean that those who take steroids aren't cheating, and that doesn't meant they aren't cheating
those that don't use them. This is a key point, because keymasters don't just cheat, they cheat me and those who level in real way. In this analogy, the rules just don't make sense, as they don't support what cheating is conceptually. Again, just because it isn't against the rules, doesn't mean it's not cheating.

You were not using objects for your verbs, so therefore you omitted the applicable definitions.
–verb (used without object)
4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers. (Not applicable to this situation)

#5 is the most used definition in terms of discussing the game, and nearly impossible to separate from the use of the word, and I don't believe that you are arguing that keying or leeching violates rules or regulations.

I do not believe that #1, #2, #3, and #4 are as widely applicable as you are using them.
Leeches are not claiming anything about how they leveled when they join a party, just that they have the job at X level. At this point in the game, there is no way to know how a stranger gained his levels other than asking, so it is inappropriate to make assumptions one way or the other. Without this assumption, there is no deception based on the manner of leveling.

There is an implication that people who join for active DD and mage spots have the appropriate level of combat and magic skills, and that they know what they're doing If they have the appropriate skills and knowledge, there is no deception or fraud. If they choose to not skill and gimp themselves, then sure, you can say they're cheating the party out of a DD spot, but it is because the player made bad choices, not how they gained their levels. If they only made Qufim sync xp parties, they'd still have terribly low skills.

By your example, you can claim that leeches are cheating your sense of accomplishment, but saying that we are cheating is not applicable to those definitions. However, people who leech are saying that getting lv 90 is not an accomplishment for them, so they're not cheating their sense of accomplishment.

In the bodybuilding example, if the winner used steroids and openly admits it since it was not against the rules, there is no cheating in regards to rules violations, nor is there fraud or deception in that they are not claiming to be steroid free. If a participant chooses not to use steroids, he is just putting himself at a disadvantage.

You haven't completely made a connection between the two. I am not obligated to make your arguements for you. You tell me? How and why are doing those not cheating by definions (plural now!) and how does that make keymastering not cheating, and why? I'd like to know.

They are not cheating because they are not frauduelent or deceptive: Again, no claim was made by the person otherwise. In fact, it was agreed when the keymaster was invited (or changed jobs) that that was his role in the party would be. There is no violation of rules, or deception to the party as to what that character's role in the xp party is.

Yes, this would level up the characters quickly. But in those games, the weaker characters aren't opening chests, and I'm pre-supposing they were participating in the battle by fighting monsters, or being fought by them. Again, chests don't try to kill you, that's part of why it's leeching and therefore cheating.

It is very possible to set up a first strike one-hit KO with your strong characters in many games (e.g. Sneak attack + knights of the round + wsummon + hp<>mp in FFVII, or the Exp. Share item in pokemon), and if not, its about the same participation as a subbed cure II. Revive them just before the fight ends if they get targetted. Anyways, those are not FFXI. Have you ever seen low level characters trying to open chests while fighting murex? They really should have 2 hp atmas and atma of the apocalypse, because they die a lot in pickup groups. Stilll, most mobs used for xp do not have aoe like that. Also, if a mimic happens to pop in the middle of the group, then the chest will try to kill the keymaster.

It is my assessment that yes, those characters were do-nothing leeches, that much should be obvious. The experienced gained by the lower level members did not reflect their own work at all. And I'm interested to know if you think do nothing leeches are OK, as you've only addressed keymasters specifically, but not do-nothing leeches. It would seem to be, but I'd like to hear that from you. You cannot say that they aren't leeching and therefore aren't cheating in the one and not the other.

I think joining as a DD and then afking the whole time is a jerk move and worthy of a kick. It is deceptive, but is not a violation of the rules. Therefore, it is cheating the party out of a DD slot, but it is not cheating at FFXI. If you let the group know that you need to afk for 30 minutes, they are fine with it, and you come back, that's ok. If the person payed for a leech spot, then it is a business transaction of gil for easy xp, and there is no fraud or deception, and there is no cheating using any of the definitions.

Related, what is your opinion of people who key their subjobs from 37 to 49, and then never touch them again? You will still need to learn when to use the subjob's abilities with your main job, and adjust to the slightly different playstyle. Does your opinion change if the person admits that its a new subjob for them that they're trying out in an xp group?

As I've said before, this game, Final Fantasy XI, actually makes it so that characters who are lower level than the highest party member are penalized in exp, and as far as monster exp goes, it's the same way in Abyssea as well, to the best of my knowledge. Given the penalty, I'd say SE actually discourages this in the context of FFXI exping. I'd like to hear from SE why level 30 characters, who's negligible contribution to a battle against a monster that's almost level 100 should be allowed to get 5000 experience points for a whopping 5 mobs. Why have an exp level difference penalty in some cases, but not others? It's inconsistent.

The 5000 xp per 5 mobs is actually scaled to the level. (I know, I tossed some dominion ops at my lv 70 nin to get it to lv 72 so I could equip it better for DDing in a Visions zone). I got something like 2300 xp and 270 dominion notes. I've tossed a dominion op or two at jobs that I left around 50, and those give around 1300/420. Only xp from chests is not scaled. Since the keymaster is paying 500 cruor per chest opened, he is actively participating in that aspect of the party.

In regards to the walking across the US example, it may be one person's goal to walk across the US, but others may just want to cross the country so they can spend some time at the beach with their friends; those people lose nothing by taking a car or plane, nor does it detract from the first person's sense of accomplishment for getting there in his own way. Climbing Mount Everest is not a good example, because the whole point of that is the climb itself, not the destination.

TLDR: Panthera can claim that, with his particular expectations, leeches cheat his sense of accomplishment. In my opinion, Panthera is making some assumptions about people that, at this point in the game, should not be made. He would be better off saying that it cheapens the accomplishment of leveling rather than calling people who leech jobs from 30 to 90 cheaters.

[Akujima]

That the game has it built-in doesn't mean it isn't cheating. Using a non RPG game analogy, there's Warp Whistles in Mario 3, the original Super Mario had warp pipes, etc. Activision's famous cheat codes, supported by the game by design, are still cheats! They don't pretend that they're not. They are short-cuts that completely evade, they are cheating. There's a funny bit about this on College Humor that explains it. http://www.collegehumor.com/video/61...-warp-whistles

It's not that you got to the final level of Mario(and notice how we're still talking about "levels"), it's how you got there. Suppose the game supported warping from the first level to the last. There's a difference between saying,"I saw the Super Mario Credits," which isn't really winning, and "I beat every single level of of Super Mario."

Panthera's attempt to use the word "cheating" is quite risky for an argument. But after seeing this, then I'm going to have to say that this is hard to top. Having circumvention mechanics in an offline console game is one thing, but having those same mechanics built into an MMORPG is simply poor game design.

It doesn't take as long as it used to, to EXP and LvUp from 1~75. The idea behind giving a LvCap of Lv70 or 75, was to give a chance for all the veterans with multiple 75 jobs, to quickly LvUp after that. Abyssea is a break for the veterans, but it should not allow for newcomers to be able to leech their way to Max Lv. Just because a few "smart" players decided to KeyLeech to Lv90, doesn't mean that there isn't people out there taking advantage of Abyssea Leech, because they are simply lazy in the Lvling process.

The argument of "Oh but I'm tired of Lvling Up, because I've done so much of it already!" is nullified by the fact that Abyssea Lv30 Cap is simply poor game design, which has been my argument from the beginning. Newcomers have the chance to circumvent 80% of the games content and skip basically everything else, going straight to Abyssea. I say 80% because all that's needed is to get a few friends to farm items for the Limit Break quests. And 20% allotted to LB quests is very generous.

This thread will go on and on, because the fact is this: People out there want to be able to cheat, leech and be lazy. They want to hear good things about their bad habits. If encouraged to do it, they will then have more zealous in defending that cheating/leeching system. SE's decision to allow for this to happen is poor game design, no matter what way you look at it. MMORPG's new OR old, should not have circumvention mechanics built into them.

Good MMORPG's are designed so that players can experience as much possible content that the game has to offer. Abyssea Lv30 Cap has the potential to water-down all the other content in the game, and any video-game critic worth their weight in salt, will agree (for the fourth and final time) that it is simply poor game design.


EDIT: If you want to argue with me that FFXI is NOT an MMORPG. I'm ready and waiting to have a good laugh at that post.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Teleportation abilities placed in a game are cheating, you heard it here first.

Also wtf is this 80% of the game you circumvent by leeching, you miss all of Eco-warrior and Garrison which no one does in the first place (and you can do that if you really wanted to but there's no worthwhile rewards in either) and Campaign which isn't really worth doing anyway due to length of time spent waiting around waiting for another battle to come around.

[Greatguardian]

Who cares, Aku.

Get your levels however you want. At the end of the day, all that matters is you and how competent you are. If you are incompetent, no amount of accomplishments are going to change that. If you are competent, I don't care if you don't even have all your teleport crystals yet as long as you can play the game well.

Bottom line, Panthera's two main arguments are that Leeching deceives people into thinking that someone is better at the game than they are, and that an abundance of level 90s lessens the rarity and thus the exclusivity of being level 90.

The former is a faulty assumption on the part of the player. You cannot ever assume that someone is competent, whether they are level 90, whether they have Endgame-tier gear, or whether they are a member in a respected shell. Unless you know someone, or have interacted with them, you should not be making assumptions about them. If you assume that the WAR you picked up is smart and knows what he's doing just because he has an Ebody and is a member of a big HNMLS, it's your own fault if you end up disappointed.

Smart, competent players will always have solid gear. However, having solid gear does not require being a smart, competent player. All squares are rectangles, but just because something is a rectangle does not make it a square.

The latter is just silly. EXP takes time. As time goes by, max level players become more common. As max level players become more common, more efficient routes to max level are discovered. The number of players at max level will always increase exponentially, with or without Abyssea. Allowing whatever sense of personal accomplishment you have with regards to your level to be influenced by the exclusivity of that level is simply asking to be disappointed. The community has not considered being max level anything special. If you do, that's your business, but there's no reason for Abyssea to change how you feel about your personal feats.

As far as Akujima's arguments go, no u. It's bad because it is. It's good because it is. It should be this way. It shouldn't be that way. Good games do this. Critics say this.

Protip Aku: New players aren't skipping over 80% of the game's content when 80% of the game's content is at max level.

Protip 2: No one is barred from exploring or completing side-quests just because they are max level. If anything, exploring is easier because you are less likely to get chomped on in every single dungeon in the game. And if you like that sort of dangerous exploring, there are still plenty of dungeons with mobs that will aggro level 90 and can eat your face.

Bottom line: Abyssea gives people options. Everyone is a leech anyways whether they're level 30 or not if they aren't a strong, contributing member of the group. No, parsing 0.3% with maxed skills is not contributing just because you're there in spirit.

[Panthera]

@panthera
You are using the 'accomplish' of leveling as a way to assign value to the end result, a functional level 90 character with respectably leveled skills and knowledge of how the job they leveled works by way of the leveling process.

Yes, correct.

You consider a bad level 90 character who has leveled by traditional means more of an accomplishment than a good level 90 character that was leveled by some other way.

I didn't actually say that as such. It's best to use direct quotes whenever possible, but

Stumbling through 90 levels without learning a thing--and I staticed with that guy--is not really impressive. If they played badly all that time, and still do, and we all know they're out there, is not an accomplishment. That just means that they leeched off of the spare skill and knowledge of those around them. If someone plays well at 90, but cheated to get there, then no, the journey was not an accomplishment. If anything, the journey was side-stepped.

So no, neither are really accomplishments, they can't be compared in terms of one moreso than the other.

The end result either has value or does not regardless of the means of leveling.

Ok, now we're talking about something a bit different. Of course, having a level 90 has value in a practical sense. It means you can do end game events with friends, etc, whether or not you cheated to get there, correct.

What is your answer to players who are better at their jobs than others, and reach level cap faster even using more traditional means?

My answer to what question? Which players?

Assuming a lot, and assuming I'm not addressing you in particular, I'd guess I'd tell them, "You play very well at level 90 for your first character that you cheated to get to 90. I'm really not impressed that you went afk and leeched, and keymastering really wasn't much of a challenge, so please, please stop bragging getting to 90. You could have just bought your account, and it would be about the same thing. I wish that the last X number of NMs went faster and we didn't lose so often, but at least you learned, and at a heavy price as compared to normal exp mobs, but you do well now. "

Players who don't have capped skills despite being active in a party?

Depends. Scythe is tough to cap because Haley's Comet has come and gone since your last swing. I just wouldn't expect them to have capped scythe. Also, I'd say skill up rates are a fickle lover. God knows they are on fishing.

On one hand you try to place importance on learning a job, but leveling faster gives you less time to do that.

Yes. Players have less time to learn than they used to. It is the responsiblity of the player to meet the challenge. The game is tough. It's even tougher if you're not smart, but that goes without saying.

Learning any job in this game is easily offset by doing outside research, and I argue that outside research is in fact a much better learning tool than leveling by traditional means. By researching a job or game mechanics we achieve the same 'accomplishment' as leveling, and more so, in a shorter time frame. We learn more valuable skills than grinding out experience points can ever teach us.

Ok, good point. Some things you can learn just by looking it up. You can learn what Blind is by looking it up. You can also learn it by casting it on a mob, and see how it effects their accuracy, or having it cast on your or a friend by a mob and see how it effects your accuracy. In this case, research is an acceptable substitute for experience.

But all of that is only academic until you sit down and do it. For example, you can learn about blink tanking from reading about it. What that doesn't give you is the feel of doing it, when to start casting by the timing of the monster's attacks, when to cancel out a Ni shadow for an Ichi one, is not something you can get from a book, as it were. Knowing how to shadow is something you learn to do by doing it. There's learning about it, and then there's learning to do it.

The PLD story I spoke of earlier is not made up.

I didn't say it wasn't, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was, though I'm not sure if it's your contention that I don't believe you, when... well, I said your Pld story was true in the previous post.

I brought it up because it proves a point. Your definition of cheating can be applied to every single person who plays this game, even you.

Correct.

It is a loose employment of the term that is subject to assessment by the governing body of this game.

That's actually quite articulate, but incorrect. Saying that leeching is not cheating because it is not against TOS is a strict employment of the term. I would argue that I am using the word strictly according to other definitions. If I say that traditional experience points are legitimate because they don't deprive, mislead, evade, or act dishonestly, I am using the word loosely, because legitimate has more to do with cheating in the sense of "not breaking rules" than with the alternative definitions of cheating.

SE cannot say that cheating aren't things that deprive, mislead, evade, or act dishonestly by definition. That's just what the word means. The meaning of the word is not subject to their assessment.

SE holds all rights over the game environment, and as such what they deem allowable is in effect 'not cheating' in their game.

Correct. FFXI is the property of Square Enix, and they make the rules. If they say something isn't cheating it isn't in the sense that that it's not against their rules.

Leeching is not against the rules, they don't try to stop, it is allowed. It is not cheating because it is not against the rules in effect: something that is produced by an agency or cause.

That they have not outright condoned it doesn't matter.

Well, if you mean that if they don't say leeching isn't against the rules, then it isn't against the rules. They have to say it is, or it is not. If that's what you're getting at, that is correct. Although, a word from SE would be nice, if at least just to put an end to this, but along side that, I'd like to know how they came to that decision.

They continue to alter other aspects of the game to allow even more methods of fast leveling, even below level 30. These methods also allow for characters to 'leech'.

Can you give specific examples? I don't want to put words in your mouth on this one.

If you truly believe that SE didn't intend for people to 'leech' in Abyssea, that it was an oversight on their part, what is your answer to recently released content?

Again, so we're on the same page, tell me exactly what you're talking about. I'm not sure if you're talking about Abyssea or FOV or GOV or what have you.

Community reps have responded in several of these topics, it's safe to assume that they are aware of our actions in game.

Yes, it's safe to say they assume they know about the existence of AFB and chest leeching and do-nothing leeching.

I'd also like you to answer me one more question. You claim to not allow people below a certain level in your parties. Who opens chests? Do you have a level 90 character with capped merits on all his jobs just for that? Or do you let people temporarily cheat so that you can get chests? After all, opening chests is 'leeching', 'leeching' is cheating.

Correct. I'm sure I've said something like, "low level chest leeching is cheating." I'm pretty sure I've said,"keymastering is cheating."

Logically, what I should have and must say is this: Keymastering at any level on any job is cheating because it's not specific to or supported by the job/support job combination played at the time the experience points were earned.

Now, you're gonna get a kick out of this. I myself have been keymaster from +75, but, I didn't inhale. Just kidding. I really wasn't cheating when I was doing it... and here's why.

I specifically recall doing keymaster on Corsair once. The ally was obliterating the largely defenseless Crapaudies very quickly. Chests were popping up all over the place, I was running around like a madmen trying to pop them all. But while doing this, I was buffing my party with Corsair rolls, and using Wild Card because I'd get the 2 hour chests. Another time, I was playing Samurai/Dancer like Dancer/Samurai to help cure people while popping chests. In either case, I was exping in a way specific to or supported by my job.

With tos, you're not cheating because it's not against the rules. But it is cheating because of evasion, deception, etc. In this case, there's just a single definition. Keymastering is cheating because it's not earning exp with your job, and not cheating means earning exp with your job. You can't be cheating and not cheating, so since I was getting exp on my job, the fact that I was a keymaster at the same time didn't matter, because I can't be cheating and not cheating if cheating means only one thing. Saying that I was cheating because I was opening chests, even if I was playing my job doesn't make sense.

Now, if at any time I have invited or allowed a low level person as key master, it means this: they were cheating, not me. Their levels were fraudulent, not mine. If one gets exp on characters reserve characters in offline games, that means those characters levels were cheated. That it's a necessary evil, and a flaw in the design, and unavoidable, does not make it not cheating. I did not design abyssea. I am not responsible for it. If I have to get a low level person to do chests as a matter of necessity, those levels are cheated, but they are not my levels.

And if someone with an Emperian is willing to open chests, I won't stop them, the cheat that they are.

People will miss out on the accomplishment of learning new skills above 75, or whichever level you arbitrarily decided wasn't cheating anymore.

Yes, they will miss out on that. But there's more to the accomplishment than what was learned along the way.

And by the way, I own all three of my accounts. I started the first one in December of 2003. I started the second with an Ultimate Edition game key from Steam when Abyssea came out, and I started the third this month from an UE - Abyssea copy. I started the second because I purchased a second laptop, I started the third because I built a new desktop. I'm running my three accounts on three different machines.

I never disupted that this wasn't actually the case. I raised some hypotheticals, but they were only hypotheticals.

You mention that I made my arguments without resorting to name calling, yet you use petty offhanded remarks in an attempt to discredit me? Nice try. That's your moral outrage showing.

I'd like to direct your attention to your initial post:...

You're argument is stupid, and here's why... Also, your definition of cheating is stupid."

Only because you were uncivil the first time. That set the tone for later replies, this one I hope not withstanding. I'll accept,"Your arguement is logically unsound," or,"your arguement doesn't show sufficient reasons to prove that it is so.." What I will not accept is,"You logic is stupid." That's just rude and insulting. I would be happy to continue civilly if it does not continue. I've enjoyed this exchange, and hope you have as well.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I came 7th in total damage on Blu while leeching it, clearly I did not earn my levels despite outdamaging all but 6 in the Alliance. I also main healed while leeching whm and kept people hasted which is more than I get when I'm in the same pts on a DD job.
You still haven't brought up a single point of cheating that is allowable by the ToS, because, instances of actual cheating and not your imaginary cheating because people get exp faster than at 75 cap are not allowed under the ToS. Seriously your arguments are asinine and you're entitled to your view on what counts as an accomplishment, but no one has to agree with it. In fact, almost no one does.

[Greatguardian]

Still has not, and probably never will, address the fact that 90% of Level 90 players are leeches whenever they join EXP parties.

If your DD is a piece of utterly detestable garbage wearing 4% Haste, a completely unfinished Str GA, using Full Break and parsing less than 1% of the party's damage when I'm parsing 95%+ out of 18 people, you are a leech. If you are a SAM using Tachi: Gekko with a Hagun for 600 damage using a 7-hit and fulltiming a Wyvern Helm, you are a leech. If you're a NIN spamming level 40 Shuriken with a Fire Staff, you are a leech. If you are a Dark Knight ... just a Dark Knight, you are a leech.

Weak players leech off stronger players. The only change Abyssea made is that it no longer hurts the stronger players when they do so. I'd say that's a win-win.

[Akujima]

Who cares

Great comeback.

[Akujima]

Still has not, and probably never will, address the fact that 90% of Level 90 players are leeches whenever they join EXP parties.

So having a narcissistic/megalomaniac elitist attitude is a requirement for FFXI as well?