Give summoners procs for abyssea

I was thinking if summoner could use one of the lvl 75 BPs to be able to proc green !! perhaps to gravity the NM for a while and increase the exp/cruor dropped after battle.

I want a new JA on pup that procs blue, yellow and red all at once, gives TH9, warps everyone in the zone to my pos when I get the drop I want with fireworks going off saying "CONGRATULATIONS!".

Oh and I also want it to land gravity on the mob and give increased xp/curor.

To the moon!

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Originally Posted by Runespider

I want a new JA on pup that procs blue, yellow and red all at once, gives TH9, warps everyone in the zone to my pos when I get the drop I want with fireworks going off saying "CONGRATULATIONS!".

Oh and I also want it to land gravity on the mob and give increased xp/curor.

To the moon!

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PUP gets more than enough as it is

Also this thread will go nowhere good I started one a few weeks back, turned into non-SMNs pissing and moaning about how if that happened it would hurt their ability to bring 3 ppl max to a NM farming run and still get good drop rate

I'm not sure about this idea to make SMN the only cruor increasing abyssea job. It isn't even like people kill NMs for the cruor, so it wouldn't increase the demand for SMNs. Would help SMNs who solo NMs I guess. Overall a pretty lackluster change to the job that would be a waste compared to spending the time on the real issues at hand.

Adding new procs out of thin air is just going to piss people off because that means one more thing to check for.

I would rather be invited to a group because I am useful than just because of this stupid artificial annoying bad metagame-ruining proc system.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I would rather be invited to a group because I am useful than just because of this stupid artificial annoying bad metagame-ruining proc system.

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I don't know. Some people may just view it as a gimmic, But it adds something more to every fight. Now every fight just isn't a mad zerg to kill it and just pray you get a drop this time.

This hate for a System that directly gives you the ability to create a Zerg window, Increase Drop rates of rare-items, and increases drop rate of Upgrade items, while stopping Spells or Abilities as well depending on the Action is just insane :|

I mean, you can actually do things during a fight that can greatly increase your chances of getting specific items. I bet no one in the old days would have complained if the Weakness system was introduced to Nidhogg, or any ground King, Increasing how many and how often he dropped Abjurations? Nope. Or how about a Weakness system for King Behemoth? Hit a Blue and greatly increase your odds for Dring? I bet it would have been praised highly for adding a way to increase everyones odds of getting better/more drops.

(Admittedly there would still have been a few people complaining their drops are not as rare as they once were and "THEY'RE RUINING THE GAME BRO"... You know, The ones who might complain "my armor isn't as shiny now because everyone has it, give me more 21-24 hour world spawn NMs i can bot so i can hold my armor over peoples heads and feel superior Q_Q")

While they may at this point be over-using the proc system it in itself is a sound idea. It gives multiple jobs at least a slight use, For instance, Needing a PLD for Swift Blade, Needing a WAR for Gaxe Procs, needing a MNK for h2h procs, needing NIN or SAM for their respective weapons, THF for Dagger, etc.

Edit: On the idea of giving SMN procs, Im with you actually, don't want em. Adding more procs out of the blue would just add more jobs you would need to check for. I think its fine as is. SMN did get the short end of the stick though.

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I don't know. Some people may just view it as a gimmic, But it adds something more to every fight. Now every fight just isn't a mad zerg to kill it and just pray you get a drop this time.

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It doesn't add anything to a fight except more drops. If it didn't give more drops, no one would care. The proc system simply exists to slow down a fight, e.g. reward people for not zerging because they can't come up with any other way to reduce it. That's the only true purpose it serves. But what actually happens? Everyone just stands around until the proc is found, and then you zerg it down. So essentially it just takes something that's not that fun for some people and makes it less fun for everyone.

Summoner can't zerg well because it's locked down by a timer, and summoner can't proc except for staff red/blue, and it isn't really needed as a support role in abyssea either. Summoner is simply unpopular as a result. You can do lots of awesome stuff on summoner, there's hardly anything you can't beat with a couple sumoners, but you don't get procs if you do, so no one does it anymore. Giving SMN procs will just annoy everyone that's not a SMN and not do anything particularly good to solve the problem of SMN's lack of popularity.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It doesn't add anything to a fight except more drops. If it didn't give more drops, no one would care. The proc system simply exists to slow down a fight, e.g. reward people for not zerging because they can't come up with any other way to reduce it. That's the only true purpose it serves. But what actually happens? Everyone just stands around until the proc is found, and then you zerg it down. So essentially it just takes something that's not that fun for some people and makes it less fun for everyone.

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Did you read anything else in my post >_<? Cause i feel like i addressed some of yours...

(to the Bold)

But it does. Its a System that directly allows you to effect the drops you receive, thats the biggest Merit of the system. I would rather sit around for 1minute to let someone proc blue and have a ~50% Chance at my Drop, than stick to old style "No proc" systems like Ground Kings and Just zerg a mob and prey the 0.5% Chance Random-Number Generator favors me today.

I guess you probably do see it as "slowing down a fight", but if i had to choose between a 5% Drop rate or lower (Read: Dring) or a system where i hold the mob for a few more moments and have that increase to 50%, I'll take the later. Because in the end, You may fight the mob 10% slower, But you get 20x the drops as opposed to an older system.

I mean, they technically could have just made all the drops "proc" level drop rate and not even used the proc system, but to me that would seem lazier...

Edit: I'm willing to humor any ideas you would have rather introduced? Or would you have just preferred a Zerg-Pray style system? Serious question, i know it sounds sarcastic, Its not.

Would you have preferred they just handed us all the drops at their "proc" rate?

I wonder if they could have implemented this system better, but as is it works for Abyssea*, anywhere else its kinda a chore.

Edit:You're right in one light, it really is just "Proc > Zerg" in most cases as opposed to "Zerg > Pray", But, is that really so bad?

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Its a System that directly allows you to effect the drops you receive.

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So what? More drops is more drops. It would be a lot simpler to just have one proc and get more of everything. It would still ruin the metagame just the same, it would just be less elaborate.

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You're right in one light, it really is just "Proc > Zerg" in most cases as opposed to "Zerg > Pray", But, is that really so bad?

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Consider the fact that there's no difference between the two except in the former you wait however much amount of time it takes to get your procs before you zerg.

It has created a metagame where your sole worth is determined by how many different triggers you have. EVERY job should be wanted for more than its ability to make more items drop.

The system was clearly created as an artificial means to slow down fights. If they sat down and put their thinking caps on, they could create fights that challenge us without resorting to carrot-dangling. I'd rather have fun and challenging fights with fair drop rates than boring fights where you get tons of s**t if you get the procs and lucky if you get anything otherwise.

Yeah, non-SMN hate us cuz they dont have pretty glowing naked chicks following them, and SE just dont want to overpower us to the point of being nerfed, yada yada yada... *insert classic SMN rant here*

What I would like to know, is if the dev team is aware of the unconformity of SMNs on the job, people is complainging nowdays of PLD that became useless bot before that it was pretty useful and de dev team said somethin on the line of trying to fix PLD replying to a thread of PLDs compaining on hate cap and such, SMN was always the last one to be picked to parties (till PUP came out tho, but then they fixed PUP or so I've heard) and we complain often and we felt cheated on the new avatars and the increase in level cap is negative to us as we get nerfed again till we get our SMN skill capped to have the benefits of over the cap SMN skill bonuses on bloodpacts, perp cost rises and we dont get usefull new bloodpacts well, you can go on...

I dont recall a dev replying to a summoner thread on the known issues of SMN, sure inside abyssea with RR and MM atmas we rock (once a minute tho), but I dont think letting us trigger procs will help much (as we dont BP as often as a BLM cast for example) and the afformentioned issues of other jobs complaining and stuff, thats we cant have nice things... hope SE can at least give us some light and hope on the matter (and something in the really near future, nobody wants to wait as long as we waited for the new avatars again)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

So what? More drops is more drops. It would be a lot simpler to just have one proc and get more of everything. It would still ruin the metagame just the same, it would just be less elaborate.

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Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.

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I don't feel a Proc System is breaking the Metagame of FFXI.

I don't think it "Ruins" any metagame, it adds another strategy to the fight. Its in the same light as Killing Bosses in CoP Dynamis To weaken the NM, or Killing specific mobs in eiherjar to effect end-drops (The Bird, The Tiger?)

I.E You kill a Boss in Bub, NM wont use Hundred fists. In the same light, You hit Blue, His WS/JA are locked for a while. It just another step to the fight that adds something more than Pop>spank style fights.

Or Killing the Bird (I forgot what it really does) improves synth mats from the end chest. In the same light, proc yellow = More Seals. Its just taking it a much further than our old systems. I can't compare it to much else, sorry.

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(1)Consider the fact that there's no difference between the two except in the former you wait however much amount of time it takes to get your procs before you zerg.

(2)It has created a metagame where your sole worth is determined by how many different triggers you have. EVERY job should be wanted for more than its ability to make more items drop.

3The system was clearly created as an artificial means to slow down fights. If they sat down and put their thinking caps on, they could create fights that challenge us without resorting to carrot-dangling. I'd rather have fun and challenging fights with fair drop rates than boring fights where you get tons of s**t if you get the procs and lucky if you get anything otherwise.

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(I say this a lot, I'm numbering this so its easier for the reader, Not to mock you. There is no negative impression in the numbering)

1) Its pointless to imagine that though, Because there IS a difference. The proc system Raises Drop rates, and Hurts your enemy for a Time. If there was no difference between Proccing and not proccing, You would be right, But there is. Two important things. Drop rates, and Hindering your enemy. This is why i like the System.

2) What system would you have Introduced? Game designers are human, If you can't think of a better system that makes every single one of 20 jobs useful that isn't utilizing a specific ability to that job, how can they? however if you can... You should make a suggesiton thread on it

3) 2 actually goes well with this. Can you think of a better system? I know i can't. My basic idea would be "Give every job a use by including a way for each job to determine either drops, or outcome of the fight using a specific ability special to that job". They dropped the ball on pet jobs, But other jobs got it right on.

I don't really think it was created to "Slow down fights", i think their goal was to try and give a lot of jobs specific uses for fights, and give us players a way to effect the end results of a battle (Drops). I don't think it was an "Anti-zerg" method, Otherwise why would proc (Red) pretty much give players a ~30 second "Zerg" (it can be viewed as nothing more than that, Terror on a mob for such a long period has only 1 purpose, zerg window).

On the idea of NMs with "Fair drop rates" and "Challenging fights" i agree, That could have been the case, but then the fights would almost certainly devolve into the same 2 basic Strategies of FFXI.

1) Zerg it to shit
2) Ranged DDs and a PLD tank

Which will inevitably become "boring". Nothing is fun forever, and maybe I'm unique, but i did have fun with the proc system, hitting weaknesses and knowing i had a good chance at the drop made me pretty excited to finally kill it. I had fun with Early Abyssea, Killing Lacovie, etc before everyone "Knew" the Proc system.

I remember Trying to solo Chukwa as THF/COR back when we jus thit the 80 cap and he was still "Exciting" to me. (I was trying to get my PLD neck).

They could have given us something better, But i think this System is at least a step up from our old systems of Low low drop rates, No control on it, and One of the above 2 strategies. So the challenge would only be there until someone figured out the best way to kill it =\

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(once a minute tho)

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with DD atmas, you rock continously, not just once a minute.

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I don't think it "Ruins" any metagame, it adds another strategy to the fight.

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It doesn't add strategies. It eliminates all strategies other than "red blue dead" or "yellow dead" or "all procs and dead it."

With a few exceptions, you don't proc weakness because it gives a status effect. You do it because you get more stuff.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Summoner can't zerg well because it's locked down by a timer, and summoner can't proc except for staff red/blue, and it isn't really needed as a support role in abyssea either.

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Well this is completely untrue. Spirits can proc yellow with spells and so can avatars. In fact, Summoner has every yellow proc you can get from whm and blm, minus the -aga versions.

Light (Light Spirit): Banish II, Banish III, Flash, Holy
Dark (Dark Spirit): Aspir, Drain, Bio II, Dispel
Water (Water Spirit): Water III, Water IV, Flood
Water (Leviathan): Water IV
Earth (Earth Spirit): Stone III, Stone IV, Quake
Earth (Titan): Stone IV
Fire (Fire Spirit): Fire III, Fire IV, Flare
Fire (Ifrit): Fire IV
Thunder (Thunder Spirit): Thunder III, Thunder IV, Burst
Thunder (Ramuh): Thunder IV
Ice (Ice Spirit): Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Freeze
Ice (Shiva): Blizzard IV
Wind (Air Spirit): Aero III, Aero IV, Tornado
Wind (Garuda): Aero IV

The problem is that they aren't as useful here because of their timers. People complain that procing takes too long but only bring the minimum amount of people...that's just silly if you ask me. If you brought along more people, to help proc (like summoner) then you wouldn't have any room to complain (not that I like the boring proc system where most people will just be standing around anyway).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It doesn't add strategies. It eliminates all strategies other than "red blue dead" or "yellow dead" or "all procs and dead it."

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As opposed to the old Strategies of "Claim > dead" and "pop > dead"? I won't sit back and act like FFXI is a Strategists game, but at least there are now some actual goals when killing a mob(Procs) as opposed to "Just kill it and hope it drops this time".

Maybe Strategy is the wrong word, I admit, but it adds something to the fight that allows you to directly impact a fight. Rather it be creating a Zerg Window (Red), Stopping Spells and Raising Synth mat/Etc Drop rates (yellow), Or Preventing TP moves and increases the drop rate of Rare items (Blue).

Edit: I think i now need to point out, The reason i like the system best is because it greatly enhances drop rates. Really nothing more. Maybe I'm unclear in that. I thought i was clear in my first post when i said "I'd take a system that gives me a 50% Drop rate over one that leaves me at 5% with no way to effect it". But i guess i have to repeat that a thousand times.

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Well this is completely untrue. Spirits can proc yellow with spells and so can avatars.

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Don't you dare bring spirits into this. You cannot make spirits cast spells on command. That makes them useless for procing. It's completely TRUE, not completely untrue. spirits are so ineffective and unpredictable that for this purpose, they should be considered not to exist.

This is the first i've ever heard of the IV blood pacts procing. They are job abilities, not spells. Unless you've done it yourself and seen your name as the proc triggerer, then stop spouting nonsense like this.

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The reason i like the system best is because it greatly enhances drop rates. Really nothing more.

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Therein lies the problem. It's not a good system for any reason other than getting more stuff. And because the jobs that were already the most popular have the most procs, it makes the less popular jobs even less popular.

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Raising Synth mat/Etc Drop rates

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Yellow only affects seals. It doesn't affect anything else. it MOST CERTAINLY does not affect magain trial item drops.

Yah i can confirm Teir IV BPs do not proc.

I've actually attempted it before after figuring out it was Thunder IV, for science!

Yes because that's just what everyone wants, another set of random procs to cycle through.

No thanks, it's bad enough that it's random as hell in Voidwatch since all it tells you is SMN BPs, not what kind specifically.


I can't be the only on in favor of less procs, chiefly axing either Ancient Magic or Aga III's, 1 of the two (but not both so BLM is still needed). Either one is fine, given that AoE can obviously be detrimental in confined spaces, and AM just takes all day to cast giving the mob plenty of time to start a TP move or Spell.

Of course I'd prefer they simply do away with the timing requirements altogether as well like they did with Voidwatch but we'll see.

Most magic types only have one set of applicable spells- but elemental magic has four sets. I would completely agree with removing one of them- ideally ancient magic- the very long cast time makes it really hard to land it when the mob isn't TPing or casting.

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Well this is completely untrue. Spirits can proc yellow with spells and so can avatars. In fact, Summoner has every yellow proc you can get from whm and blm, minus the -aga versions.

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They also "forget" T3 spells when they learn T4. Or rather, as every NPC spell caster, they only have a set of alternative spells: single target, AM, aoe, debuff. Which is why monsters are superior to spirits, they have a AOE category increasing their % chance at a damage spell. (75% chance at damage with monsters, 66% with spirits)

The solution is rather easy actually, add tier 3 spells for SMN on their BP so that they have for example: Bliz 2,3,4. And make meritable BP as the same equal trigger as BLM AM tier 1. This way the only thing that SMN lack in proc would be the ga spells. Which will put them in a slightly better place than RDM and SCH for trigger but still not as good as BLM. BLM still win because they can use the spells more often while SMN still have to wait 1 mnt for BP (unless SE reduce the cooldown to 45 seconds).

Would just piss people off if they now had to bring a smn to proc green.

It's not green. It's yellow.

It's both. It's a gradient that transitions from green to yellow along the !!'s.

It's grellow.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's not green. It's yellow.

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On my monitor it is green, maybe you have your colors adjusted differently.

The outer edge of the !! is green; the majority of the icon is yellow. There is a clear difference in color.

it's amber/ruby/azure !! !

Wasn't the OP saying Green = cruor? I'm pretty sure you are allowed to call it yellow = more drops in this thread without it being wrong, or grellow = more drops.

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/57917

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Originally Posted by Arcon

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/57917

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Okay, and that's supposed to prove something? Everyone already knew Spirits could proc but they're so random that you can't proc reliably on anything. Don't get me wrong. I am not supporting this Smn proc idea at all. I think it's stupid and a Cleaved/Burn Smn wants more things to do in Abyssea, that's all.

And why is this thread in General? There is a whole sub forum for moronic Smn ideas.

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Originally Posted by Myrrh

Okay, and that's supposed to prove something?

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Nah, just thought it was funny to see this picture appear on FFXIAH at the same time as this thread. I don't feel strongly either way.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Summoner can't zerg well because it's locked down by a timer, and summoner can't proc except for staff red/blue, and it isn't really needed as a support role in abyssea either.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Well this is completely untrue. Spirits can proc yellow with spells and so can avatars. In fact, Summoner has every yellow proc you can get from whm and blm, minus the -aga versions.

Light (Light Spirit): Banish II, Banish III, Flash, Holy
Dark (Dark Spirit): Aspir, Drain, Bio II, Dispel
Water (Water Spirit): Water III, Water IV, Flood
Water (Leviathan): Water IV
Earth (Earth Spirit): Stone III, Stone IV, Quake
Earth (Titan): Stone IV
Fire (Fire Spirit): Fire III, Fire IV, Flare
Fire (Ifrit): Fire IV
Thunder (Thunder Spirit): Thunder III, Thunder IV, Burst
Thunder (Ramuh): Thunder IV
Ice (Ice Spirit): Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Freeze
Ice (Shiva): Blizzard IV
Wind (Air Spirit): Aero III, Aero IV, Tornado
Wind (Garuda): Aero IV

The problem is that they aren't as useful here because of their timers. People complain that procing takes too long but only bring the minimum amount of people...that's just silly if you ask me. If you brought along more people, to help proc (like summoner) then you wouldn't have any room to complain (not that I like the boring proc system where most people will just be standing around anyway).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This is the first i've ever heard of the IV blood pacts procing. They are job abilities, not spells. Unless you've done it yourself and seen your name as the proc triggerer, then stop spouting nonsense like this.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/57917

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Originally Posted by Myrrh

Okay, and that's supposed to prove something? Everyone already knew Spirits could proc but they're so random that you can't proc reliably on anything.

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Well, you decide what it was supposed to prove and to who. Apparently it wasn't "everyone". I don't deny that the other facet to summoner's "uselessness" in procing is the randomness of it though. I was pointing out that they don't need procs, as they have them already, even if they're poorly and rarely used.

Edit: I guess it could be interpretted that he was only refering to the avatar spells, in which case, I guess I should look for a screenshot.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Well this is completely untrue. Spirits can proc yellow with spells and so can avatars. In fact, Summoner has every yellow proc you can get from whm and blm, minus the -aga versions.

Light (Light Spirit): Banish II, Banish III, Flash, Holy
Dark (Dark Spirit): Aspir, Drain, Bio II, Dispel
Water (Water Spirit): Water III, Water IV, Flood
Water (Leviathan): Water IV
Earth (Earth Spirit): Stone III, Stone IV, Quake
Earth (Titan): Stone IV
Fire (Fire Spirit): Fire III, Fire IV, Flare
Fire (Ifrit): Fire IV
Thunder (Thunder Spirit): Thunder III, Thunder IV, Burst
Thunder (Ramuh): Thunder IV
Ice (Ice Spirit): Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Freeze
Ice (Shiva): Blizzard IV
Wind (Air Spirit): Aero III, Aero IV, Tornado
Wind (Garuda): Aero IV

The problem is that they aren't as useful here because of their timers. People complain that procing takes too long but only bring the minimum amount of people...that's just silly if you ask me. If you brought along more people, to help proc (like summoner) then you wouldn't have any room to complain (not that I like the boring proc system where most people will just be standing around anyway).

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For this reason, I only get invites (as SCH) as an addition to a BLM/BRD and not instead of. I can't proc ancient magic or any -gas, but tier III and IV on the other hand I can. I imagine it's the same case for SMN, or at least I have been invited alongside SMN before now. But as far as yellow goes, really and truly all you need is WHM, BLU/NIN and BLM/BRD to cover all bases. SCH, RDM and SMN work as an addition and it means at times, yes, you get turned down, though as you rightly say bringing the minimum is silly - somebody in an alliance earlier summed it up nicely, "the more people you have, the quicker it is to zerg so you can get on with other things" (paraphrased of course) So I don't see why somebody would turn down somebody if they've got room, but I suppose as far as seals go, people hate the competition, then again more people = more pops, quicker proc and quicker murderfication. So clue: Wind - BLM casts Tornado, RDM casts Aero III, SCH casts Aero IV. Now of course, I can see how a SMN is at a disadvantage as far as yellow is concerned with the AI of their spirits, but I'd argue, having a chance of a spirit proccing is better than having an empty space.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It has created a metagame where your sole worth is determined by how many different triggers you have. EVERY job should be wanted for more than its ability to make more items drop.

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Yeah that's never happened, EVER. Just ask Thieves from 2003-2011.

Thieves can do more than make stuff drop. It's just not what people pay any attention to.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Thieves can do more than make stuff drop. It's just not what people pay any attention to.

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Actually, from 2003~2007/8 Thieves were only invites as TH whores. It was a big thing back then that the THF essentially "hit the mob and go away". Because they fed too much TP, Did Shit damage, Etc.

Especially on mobs like Fafnir where you couldn't really Sneak Attack without people freaking out. That couple with low dmg daggers and THFs bad str/atk, They weren't exactly "wanted" for their DD purposes, They were wanted for getting drops.

Its different now, But back then, THFs were basically Item-Whores. Maybe you didn't use Thieves that way, But it was generally accepted for a very long Times THF's were worthless outside of Treasure Hunter.

Edit: But i see the gist of what you're saying. You're saying abyssea triggeres are only useful for Drops. Which is true. They do other things (Terror, Amnesia, Silence), but are generally just used for Drops. In the same way however, in all fairness, back in the early Ages THFs could do things like Damage terribly, TA, etc, but were generally just used to get more drops :X

Really, the only times where you care about the status effect are when you're fighting Rani or Shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Really, the only times where you care about the status effect are when you're fighting Rani or Shinryu.

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Yah, I can agree with that.

Maybe Raja for good measure.

And the mindset is still present commonly. It's not a golden rule now though, at least.

And yeah Alha, it was extremely common for 2 outcomes for THF recently.

1.) (Most Common) THF is kept outside the alliance til the mob is at 5% or less HP, then brought in to tag it.

2.) (Less common, but not uncommon) Linkshell actually has a TH whore alt that had THF knife, ass hands and Trotters/Skadi's that was put in at 5% on auto attack and no one was allowed to come THF ever.

And I'm sure if they move us out of abyssea without doing anything to THF we'll be back in the same boat.

Hell, I can't even count the times where I offered as a joke to go as THF to different events and got asked, "Th4?" told them no, and didn't even get a response or got, "lol no th4 = no thks"

What if... SMN could reset certain procs using the element of the proc in a bp, that way if you cant get a party that cant have all possible procs then you use the SMN to reset it manually and getting a new proc at random so your pt can have another go with the same mob to trigger certain proc.