Give summoners procs for abyssea

[azjazo]

Yeah, non-SMN hate us cuz they dont have pretty glowing naked chicks following them, and SE just dont want to overpower us to the point of being nerfed, yada yada yada... *insert classic SMN rant here*

What I would like to know, is if the dev team is aware of the unconformity of SMNs on the job, people is complainging nowdays of PLD that became useless bot before that it was pretty useful and de dev team said somethin on the line of trying to fix PLD replying to a thread of PLDs compaining on hate cap and such, SMN was always the last one to be picked to parties (till PUP came out tho, but then they fixed PUP or so I've heard) and we complain often and we felt cheated on the new avatars and the increase in level cap is negative to us as we get nerfed again till we get our SMN skill capped to have the benefits of over the cap SMN skill bonuses on bloodpacts, perp cost rises and we dont get usefull new bloodpacts well, you can go on...

I dont recall a dev replying to a summoner thread on the known issues of SMN, sure inside abyssea with RR and MM atmas we rock (once a minute tho), but I dont think letting us trigger procs will help much (as we dont BP as often as a BLM cast for example) and the afformentioned issues of other jobs complaining and stuff, thats we cant have nice things... hope SE can at least give us some light and hope on the matter (and something in the really near future, nobody wants to wait as long as we waited for the new avatars again)

[Karbuncle]

So what? More drops is more drops. It would be a lot simpler to just have one proc and get more of everything. It would still ruin the metagame just the same, it would just be less elaborate.

Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.

I don't feel a Proc System is breaking the Metagame of FFXI.

I don't think it "Ruins" any metagame, it adds another strategy to the fight. Its in the same light as Killing Bosses in CoP Dynamis To weaken the NM, or Killing specific mobs in eiherjar to effect end-drops (The Bird, The Tiger?)

I.E You kill a Boss in Bub, NM wont use Hundred fists. In the same light, You hit Blue, His WS/JA are locked for a while. It just another step to the fight that adds something more than Pop>spank style fights.

Or Killing the Bird (I forgot what it really does) improves synth mats from the end chest. In the same light, proc yellow = More Seals. Its just taking it a much further than our old systems. I can't compare it to much else, sorry.

(1)Consider the fact that there's no difference between the two except in the former you wait however much amount of time it takes to get your procs before you zerg.

(2)It has created a metagame where your sole worth is determined by how many different triggers you have. EVERY job should be wanted for more than its ability to make more items drop.

3The system was clearly created as an artificial means to slow down fights. If they sat down and put their thinking caps on, they could create fights that challenge us without resorting to carrot-dangling. I'd rather have fun and challenging fights with fair drop rates than boring fights where you get tons of s**t if you get the procs and lucky if you get anything otherwise.

(I say this a lot, I'm numbering this so its easier for the reader, Not to mock you. There is no negative impression in the numbering)

1) Its pointless to imagine that though, Because there IS a difference. The proc system Raises Drop rates, and Hurts your enemy for a Time. If there was no difference between Proccing and not proccing, You would be right, But there is. Two important things. Drop rates, and Hindering your enemy. This is why i like the System.

2) What system would you have Introduced? Game designers are human, If you can't think of a better system that makes every single one of 20 jobs useful that isn't utilizing a specific ability to that job, how can they? however if you can... You should make a suggesiton thread on it

3) 2 actually goes well with this. Can you think of a better system? I know i can't. My basic idea would be "Give every job a use by including a way for each job to determine either drops, or outcome of the fight using a specific ability special to that job". They dropped the ball on pet jobs, But other jobs got it right on.

I don't really think it was created to "Slow down fights", i think their goal was to try and give a lot of jobs specific uses for fights, and give us players a way to effect the end results of a battle (Drops). I don't think it was an "Anti-zerg" method, Otherwise why would proc (Red) pretty much give players a ~30 second "Zerg" (it can be viewed as nothing more than that, Terror on a mob for such a long period has only 1 purpose, zerg window).

On the idea of NMs with "Fair drop rates" and "Challenging fights" i agree, That could have been the case, but then the fights would almost certainly devolve into the same 2 basic Strategies of FFXI.

1) Zerg it to shit
2) Ranged DDs and a PLD tank

Which will inevitably become "boring". Nothing is fun forever, and maybe I'm unique, but i did have fun with the proc system, hitting weaknesses and knowing i had a good chance at the drop made me pretty excited to finally kill it. I had fun with Early Abyssea, Killing Lacovie, etc before everyone "Knew" the Proc system.

I remember Trying to solo Chukwa as THF/COR back when we jus thit the 80 cap and he was still "Exciting" to me. (I was trying to get my PLD neck).

They could have given us something better, But i think this System is at least a step up from our old systems of Low low drop rates, No control on it, and One of the above 2 strategies. So the challenge would only be there until someone figured out the best way to kill it =\

[Alhanelem]

(once a minute tho)

with DD atmas, you rock continously, not just once a minute.

I don't think it "Ruins" any metagame, it adds another strategy to the fight.

It doesn't add strategies. It eliminates all strategies other than "red blue dead" or "yellow dead" or "all procs and dead it."

With a few exceptions, you don't proc weakness because it gives a status effect. You do it because you get more stuff.

[Zyeriis]

Summoner can't zerg well because it's locked down by a timer, and summoner can't proc except for staff red/blue, and it isn't really needed as a support role in abyssea either.

Well this is completely untrue. Spirits can proc yellow with spells and so can avatars. In fact, Summoner has every yellow proc you can get from whm and blm, minus the -aga versions.

Light (Light Spirit): Banish II, Banish III, Flash, Holy
Dark (Dark Spirit): Aspir, Drain, Bio II, Dispel
Water (Water Spirit): Water III, Water IV, Flood
Water (Leviathan): Water IV
Earth (Earth Spirit): Stone III, Stone IV, Quake
Earth (Titan): Stone IV
Fire (Fire Spirit): Fire III, Fire IV, Flare
Fire (Ifrit): Fire IV
Thunder (Thunder Spirit): Thunder III, Thunder IV, Burst
Thunder (Ramuh): Thunder IV
Ice (Ice Spirit): Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Freeze
Ice (Shiva): Blizzard IV
Wind (Air Spirit): Aero III, Aero IV, Tornado
Wind (Garuda): Aero IV

The problem is that they aren't as useful here because of their timers. People complain that procing takes too long but only bring the minimum amount of people...that's just silly if you ask me. If you brought along more people, to help proc (like summoner) then you wouldn't have any room to complain (not that I like the boring proc system where most people will just be standing around anyway).

[Karbuncle]

It doesn't add strategies. It eliminates all strategies other than "red blue dead" or "yellow dead" or "all procs and dead it."

As opposed to the old Strategies of "Claim > dead" and "pop > dead"? I won't sit back and act like FFXI is a Strategists game, but at least there are now some actual goals when killing a mob(Procs) as opposed to "Just kill it and hope it drops this time".

Maybe Strategy is the wrong word, I admit, but it adds something to the fight that allows you to directly impact a fight. Rather it be creating a Zerg Window (Red), Stopping Spells and Raising Synth mat/Etc Drop rates (yellow), Or Preventing TP moves and increases the drop rate of Rare items (Blue).

Edit: I think i now need to point out, The reason i like the system best is because it greatly enhances drop rates. Really nothing more. Maybe I'm unclear in that. I thought i was clear in my first post when i said "I'd take a system that gives me a 50% Drop rate over one that leaves me at 5% with no way to effect it". But i guess i have to repeat that a thousand times.

[Alhanelem]

Well this is completely untrue. Spirits can proc yellow with spells and so can avatars.

Don't you dare bring spirits into this. You cannot make spirits cast spells on command. That makes them useless for procing. It's completely TRUE, not completely untrue. spirits are so ineffective and unpredictable that for this purpose, they should be considered not to exist.

This is the first i've ever heard of the IV blood pacts procing. They are job abilities, not spells. Unless you've done it yourself and seen your name as the proc triggerer, then stop spouting nonsense like this.

The reason i like the system best is because it greatly enhances drop rates. Really nothing more.

Therein lies the problem. It's not a good system for any reason other than getting more stuff. And because the jobs that were already the most popular have the most procs, it makes the less popular jobs even less popular.

Raising Synth mat/Etc Drop rates

Yellow only affects seals. It doesn't affect anything else. it MOST CERTAINLY does not affect magain trial item drops.

[Karbuncle]

Yah i can confirm Teir IV BPs do not proc.

I've actually attempted it before after figuring out it was Thunder IV, for science!

[Malacite]

Yes because that's just what everyone wants, another set of random procs to cycle through.

No thanks, it's bad enough that it's random as hell in Voidwatch since all it tells you is SMN BPs, not what kind specifically.


I can't be the only on in favor of less procs, chiefly axing either Ancient Magic or Aga III's, 1 of the two (but not both so BLM is still needed). Either one is fine, given that AoE can obviously be detrimental in confined spaces, and AM just takes all day to cast giving the mob plenty of time to start a TP move or Spell.

Of course I'd prefer they simply do away with the timing requirements altogether as well like they did with Voidwatch but we'll see.

[Alhanelem]

Most magic types only have one set of applicable spells- but elemental magic has four sets. I would completely agree with removing one of them- ideally ancient magic- the very long cast time makes it really hard to land it when the mob isn't TPing or casting.

[Malamasala]

Well this is completely untrue. Spirits can proc yellow with spells and so can avatars. In fact, Summoner has every yellow proc you can get from whm and blm, minus the -aga versions.

They also "forget" T3 spells when they learn T4. Or rather, as every NPC spell caster, they only have a set of alternative spells: single target, AM, aoe, debuff. Which is why monsters are superior to spirits, they have a AOE category increasing their % chance at a damage spell. (75% chance at damage with monsters, 66% with spirits)