[dev1017] Job Adjustments and Refinements (Re: Ninja)

Yonin / Innin individual timers sound useful... although can we please have an adjustment to Utsusemi?

In the past it hasn't been a major problem that Utsusemi: Ichi does not overwrite Utsusemi: Ni. It's quite simple - start casting ichi while you have a shadow up, then manually turn the remaining shadow off before it finishes..

However, due to the introduction of "Quickmagic" from Atma of Apocalypse - quite often when casting Utsusemi: Ichi while having a shadow from Ni still active, the quickmagic procs and makes the Ichi useless, meaning you have to recast - and quite often by that stage the safety net of having that last Ni shadow is gone.

I do understand that on regular enhancements, the higher teir overwrites the lower, and the lower does not overwrite the higher. (For example casting Protect followed by Protect 2, protect 2 will overwrite. However casting Protect 1 over the top of Protect 2, it won't overwrite). However I believe Utsusemi should be an exclusion to this case.

In summary Ninja has had a few nice updates over the past updates and don't think it needs a lot of tweaking - however this one issue with Utsusemi bothers me, specifically due to the introduction of Atma of the Apocalypse.

Agreed utsusemi: ichi should overwrite utsusemi: ni, can't begin to count how many times i've went to take the shadow off and end up taking protect off because something else wore off at the same time. It doesnt happen often but its rather annoying when it does and with apoc you just end up waisting tools having to recast again due to the above posted by Alderin.

What are you fighting in Abyssea that you must absolutely rely on keeping shadows up all the time, or cant even go Ni>Ni?

Stop relying on Zombying NMs to kill them and use a more useful atma?

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Originally Posted by Dmer

Stop relying on Zombying NMs to kill them and use a more useful atma?

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Triple attack... its not for rr or quick magic.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

Triple attack... its not for rr or quick magic.

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Use Atma of the Lion/Alpha & Omega then.

The reason Utsusemi (and Stoneskin) are the way they are, is because SE thinks RDM/NIN would become to overpowered. And although they sometimes can't even hit the broad side of a barn with that approach (Sublimation blocking Refresh but not non-RDM MP regen spells, self-only Gain-CHR...), in the case of Utsusemi it's actually a valid thought for once.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Use Atma of the Lion/Alpha & Omega then.

The reason Utsusemi (and Stoneskin) are the way they are, is because SE thinks RDM/NIN would become to overpowered. And although they sometimes can't even hit the broad side of a barn with that approach (Sublimation blocking Refresh but not non-RDM MP regen spells, self-only Gain-CHR...), in the case of Utsusemi it's actually a valid thought for once.

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Lion and alpha and omega are both weaker and neither have much to do with the topic here.

Also how do you know what SE thinks unless your part of the dev team.

Weaker buffs generally cant overwrite stronger buffs of fixed duration

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What are you fighting in Abyssea that you must absolutely rely on keeping shadows up all the time, or cant even go Ni>Ni?

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You obviously stick to the lowbie nm's that have poor accuracy. That or you kill slowly and tank in low DD gear. Yes quite often you can go Ni > Ni, however on the times that you cannot - or an unlucky streak, you sometimes have to rely on a slow casting Ichi spell, which when you do - ends up proc'ing quickmagic - wasting tools & quite often the opportunity to hide behind that final shadow that you planned for, while recasting that slow ichi spell. Sorry to say but even with capped skill & merits, you still get interrupted from the higher tiers from time to time..

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Stop relying on Zombying NMs to kill them and use a more useful atma?

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Death happens. Regardless whether your a vet or a new player. Having auto-RR adds to the security with low manning NM's that require 50 KI's to pop.

That being said. The reason I choose Apoc over any others is it has the highest triple attack rate. Hit more = more damage & TP. Nuff said.

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Use Atma of the Lion/Alpha & Omega then.

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Both have a lower trip attack rate, as said. 5% triple attack is quite a difference if you ask me.

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The reason Utsusemi (and Stoneskin) are the way they are, is because SE thinks RDM/NIN would become to overpowered. And although they sometimes can't even hit the broad side of a barn with that approach (Sublimation blocking Refresh but not non-RDM MP regen spells, self-only Gain-CHR...), in the case of Utsusemi it's actually a valid thought for once.

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How is Ichi not overwriting Ni overpowering NIN?? I fail to see your point. Not to mention RDM being "overpowered" which it is far from actually being overpowered in it's current state - is completely irrelevant to this discussion. The fact is Ichi and Ni give you the same effect - minus one shadow. How does Ichi not overwriting Ni make sense? Yes it is a lower tier spell but the effect is the same. As /NIN you still have the same problem however the effect is exactly the same..


In summary with the introduction to Quickmagic, I believe this needs to be modified to allow Ichi to overwrite Ni, and honestly cannot see a reasonable reason for this not to be modified in this fashion. Yes lower tier buffs do not normally overwrite higher tier - however casting Utsu ichi is not intended to be cast over the top-of Ni, however moreso replacing shadows that have / are about to be lost. When quickmagic procs, by the time the spell timer allows you to re-cast, the Ni shadow you were hiding behind while casting it is already gone.

I fail to see any valid points as to why this should not be adjusted.

*bump*

Very frustrated ninja, wasting tools and turning off shadows after Instacast wanting a fix for this..

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Please do not make a simple post just for the purpose of “bumping” a thread.

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just sayin'

I doubt so very seriously that you will ever see Ichi overwrite Ni because of one atma that exists.

And for the record while on my Ninja, I have yet to use apoc because there are better options.

while on off-topic, what is better than Superior Triple attack?

any yeah, while having QM proc while trying to go from Ni > Ichi it can suck. But I don't see it being such a problem SE with make Ni overwrite Ichi.

In my opinion, Utsusemi: Ni with one shadow should be read as a weaker tier than utsusemi: Ichi with 3 shadows. Same with stoneskin. If a newly cast one has more hp to absorb it should overwrite, if it has less it shouldn't. Though maybe that's a coding nightmare, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Vold

just sayin'

I doubt so very seriously that you will ever see Ichi overwrite Ni because of one atma that exists.

And for the record while on my Ninja, I have yet to use apoc because there are better options.

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Eh, I have seen threads being bumped many times. This board gets filled with rubbish when useful posts get buried and hidden.

As for apoc - if we are speaking on pure DPS - there is currently no better atma combination then RR/GH/Apoc. Name an atma and I will even parse it for you.

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In my opinion, Utsusemi: Ni with one shadow should be read as a weaker tier than utsusemi: Ichi with 3 shadows. Same with stoneskin. If a newly cast one has more hp to absorb it should overwrite, if it has less it shouldn't. Though maybe that's a coding nightmare, I don't know.

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Which brings up my point exactly. There are very little NM's where you will start casting ichi > 3-4 shadows already up.

1-2 shadows should be seen as an inferior buff (eg. A damaged / weaker stoneskin gets overwritten by a fresh one) - so why not Ichi > Ni when you have under 3 shadows?

Once again...since you didnt answer it:

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Originally Posted by Nynja

What are you fighting in Abyssea that you must absolutely rely on keeping shadows up all the time, or cant even go Ni>Ni?

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Why don't you party, keep hate, let the WHM do it's job and kirr what ever you have to kirr.

I like apoc - just for triple attack and the feeling that I don't need a raise in case something takes away more hp than I have.
And I feel SE made the atma right the way it is. It has everything you could wish for - quickmagiv for those who use magic, triple attack for anyone who does melee damage and the good feeling of "who cares about hp"

In case you don't like quick magic just use a different atma. You just can't have anything without a downside.
I also like Atma of the Sea Daughter but I have to deal with +13,3% slow.

If Apoc FC goes off just cast again, its instant and no recast timer. Also this issue only happens in easy mode abyssea, just cast ichi in eva gear and you'll never have an issue. You can just wait until all 5ni shadows are gone and then cast. The harder mobs all cast agas which is a good time for ichi, the rest you can almost perma Ni>Ni. The only valid arguement is wasted tools but really how often does that happen?

If ichi should overwrite ni, then prot should overwrite prot V and all of the other obsurdities therein.

Or... make Quick Magic not affect non-MP spells. NINs or BRDs have little use for QM as it is.

Why do BRDs don't participate from quick magic? And I want a solid answer and not that trigger songs are quick enough.

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Originally Posted by Vold

just sayin'

I doubt so very seriously that you will ever see Ichi overwrite Ni because of one atma that exists.

And for the record while on my Ninja, I have yet to use apoc because there are better options.

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RR/GH/Apoc is almost always the best atma combo.
Apoc is better in this order TripAtt > RR3 > instaCast.
Add all that together and Apoc is very nice for NIN because we will die at some point, being able to RR > 2Hr > RR without weakness is useful. RR also useful When lowmanning things which a lot of people do these days.
InstaCast is always nice when you get a free set of shadows, If SE added a JA that let NIN cast next spell instantly without recast would anyone really complain or not use it?
TripAtt obviously because well 15% is nice as well as more aftermath procs and able to tripAtt on Blade: Hi.

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Originally Posted by Louispv

In my opinion, Utsusemi: Ni with one shadow should be read as a weaker tier than utsusemi: Ichi with 3 shadows. Same with stoneskin. If a newly cast one has more hp to absorb it should overwrite, if it has less it shouldn't. Though maybe that's a coding nightmare, I don't know.

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This is not a bad option, I understand why SE doesnt overwrite NI however a check sum to look for <3 shadows really isnt that hard. It is however not a big issue considering other bugs/fixes that are more important.
I would like to see this happen however it really isnt a huge deal just remove buff before you cast it if in Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Or... make Quick Magic not affect non-MP spells. NINs or BRDs have little use for QM as it is.

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I really hope SE doesnt listen to posts like this. That is a horrid idea, InstaCast is nice for anyone that uses any form of spell casting. If it bothers you that much then dont use the atma but dont make the rest of us that like it as is suffer.

Quick magic is wonderful as it negates the recast time as chainspell dose. So it's good for everything. Insta-ichi is one of my favorites.

Just a thought after reading through this thread. What if they changed it so a Quick Magic proc would give a buff that makes the next spell instacast. Instead of making the spell that it procs on instacast. That way you would know when you are going to cast a spell instantly. Then you could plan your next cast accoringly.

I understand the problem but somehow managed to get away with never having it myself...

Maybe it's because abyssea got super easy and whenever shadows go down I just blood tank in evasion gear until I can get a new set up.

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Originally Posted by Armauk

Just a thought after reading through this thread. What if they changed it so a Quick Magic proc would give a buff that makes the next spell instacast. Instead of making the spell that it procs on instacast. That way you would know when you are going to cast a spell instantly. Then you could plan your next cast accoringly.

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Huh? How would you like it been introduced/implemented?
The way the system works now is that you have a certain chance that the spell you use will be casted instandly.
The way you want it to be would require that the system (servers) would remember that the next spell would be casted instantly.
Technicaly that's possible to do but it would increase the load on the servers.
In case you'll put the logic behind it client side - it would be the first thing that would be abused/forced by 3'rd party tools.