Camlann's Torment

So I went through the long and annoying process to get Camlann's Torment and it was well worth it. My friends all refuse to kill Chloris again though. But there is one thing that bothers me... The description of the WS states "Delivers a triple damage attack that ignores target's defense. Amount ignored varies with TP." I read this as it will do triple the damage as Wheeling Thrust but in reality it does less than double the damage. I feel greedy asking for it to do more damage but the other weapon's WS's do alot more. I know Wheeling Thrust had to be adjusted about 6 years ago. So I was wondering if Camlann's Torment might see an adjustment.

On the bright side since I have got this polearm I have hit a critical hit for over 3000. Aftermath + Set Bonus proc'ing on a critical hit is amazing. :D

I hoping I am posting this in the right spot. Dragoon forum seemed like it would be the best place for this.

Congrats on getting your empyrean! =) I'm working on that as well right now, and I can feel your pain with getting the Chloris pops lol. >.< It's a lot of work!

I wouldn't mind seeing a small boost to this WS, but I feel like I can't really say anything until I try it out myself. ^^; Many of the other Empyrean Weaponskills do seem to outshine it though, at least in abyssea, so I'm all for a small boost to level the playing field.

I have done quite a bit of testing on Camlann's Torment, as well as submitted feedback accordingly. The current battle data for Camlann's Torment is as follows:

3.0 fTP, 60% VIT modifier, 1 hit. At 100% TP, 10% of defense is ignored, which scales linearly to 50% of defense being ignored at 300% TP. This feature noticeably produces no effect when using food against nearly all targets outside of Abyssea. Inside Abyssea, even with aftermath, you are better off using Drakesbane since aftermath cannot activate on Spirit Jump or Soul Jump.

For comparison, Tachi: Fudo, widely considered one of the 'lesser' empyrean weaponskills due to its inability to critical, starts at 3.65 fTP (60% STR fTP modifier) and scales slightly backheaviliy (3.65 -> 4.65 -> 5.75) from 100 to 300% TP, and it is not unusual to see a 3000 damage WS outside Abyssea, whereas Camlann's Torment is capped at roughly 1600-1800 unless a double attack occurs. Quietus, the empyrean scythe weaponskill, suffers from the same discrepancy.

Incidentally Bladewolf, I created an excel spreadsheet to simplify the formula for CT, although it ignores certain factors such as uncapped fSTR and cRatio, I'd be happy to share with you if you like.

Edit: If you want to see change, here's the link you should be using.
https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&p=0&fo=41

aftermath cant proc on soul or spirit jump?

Correct sir. I haven't tried with regular or high jump, but then again I didn't see much point to it either given how far ahead their high-level counterparts are.

have got some really high numbers, i just thought it was aftermath, i did over 2k often

Consider that set bonus does stack with Spirit and Soul Jump, which in turn can double and even triple attack. If aftermath did activate on them, then you would be seeing far higher numbers.

Yeah I have done the new jumps alot with aftermath up and never a proc on them.

The reason CT not doing triple WT damage is because WT has a 1.75 fTP and CT has a 3.0 fTP. WT also has a 50% STR WSC, which blows CT's 60% VIT WSC out of the water.

It's for this reason I wont be going for a Rhongomiant myself, but a Corsesca instead. Once I stop being lazy and get eight more Baby Blobdingnabs, anyway.

Camlann's Torment isn't the reason you go for Rhongomiant... Its the aftermath you are going for with that.

Well, of course. But you're forced to use a vastly inferior WS in exchange for a boost to TP damage, which doesn't pan out very well for Rhongomiant.

While the aftermath is nice, wouldn't that also mean that Ryunohige is pretty much the best "Relic" DRG can get. At Lv90 it gets a 15% boost to Drakesbane and it has Oc Attacks Twice as it's aftermath.

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Originally Posted by NeoForte

While the aftermath is nice, wouldn't that also mean that Ryunohige is pretty much the best "Relic" DRG can get. At Lv90 it gets a 15% boost to Drakesbane and it has Oc Attacks Twice as it's aftermath.

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That's kind of how I felt, and why I'm more interested in getting a Ryunohige someday (not putting a huge effort into it yet though since mythics are still perhaps the hardest relics to get). I think what makes it kind of "meh" now is that the "jump" augments don't affect our new jumps, supposedly, and our new jumps are still preferred because of their high damage and TP boost. But overall, I still think Ryunohige is maybe the best relic for dragoon in my opinion. Empyrean is just a whole lot easier to get.

Yeah, Ryunohige is (as far as I can recall) the best weapon for DRG. The issue is obtaining one. Alexandrites are ~50% more expensive than they were when Mythics were popular and pretty much impossible to find these days outside of spamming Salvage.

Yeah Ryunohige is pretty good. I need to look to see how the dmg is now but when it came out the dmg was way too low for me. It is really hard to get...

Camlann's is actually really useful not what I would call inferior. Since I know I can't use Drakesbane on a normal mob without getting ruby... Camlann's I can use at the start of the fight to take about 50% of the mobs HP. Outside of Abyssea Camlann's does do the same and sometimes more dmg than Drakesbane.

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Originally Posted by Bladewolf

Yeah Ryunohige is pretty good. I need to look to see how the dmg is now but when it came out the dmg was way too low for me. It is really hard to get...

Camlann's is actually really useful not what I would call inferior. Since I know I can't use Drakesbane on a normal mob without getting ruby... Camlann's I can use at the start of the fight to take about 50% of the mobs HP. Outside of Abyssea Camlann's does do the same and sometimes more dmg than Drakesbane.

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Aye, on the whole, it is better than Drakesbane outside of Abyssea, just not by much. Best way to sum it up is 'disappointing relative to other empyrean weaponskills'.

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Originally Posted by Stromgarde

Aye, on the whole, it is better than Drakesbane outside of Abyssea, just not by much. Best way to sum it up is 'disappointing relative to other empyrean weaponskills'.

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I can agree with that...

why cant difficult to get WS's just be really good? i most often use skewer and do between 2k(NM)-5.6k(birds/bats) dmg in abyssea outside abyssea its about the same as penta. wish i had drakesbane i bet it would be better but it and camlaans torment are a lot of work to get. and its sad that u get skewer so much earlier and theres no effort required. the only reason to get camlaans torment it seems is because of the base wpn damage and the aftermath.

Also Calmanns>Calmanns makes Light which you can then Calmanns again for double Light.

I don't want to go into the details, but you cannot do Camlanns>Camlanns>Camlanns for double light. You could do Camlanns>Drakes and close with Camlanns, or vice versa to make double.

I'll admit I was disappointed with Camlanns when I first got it and became especially jellous when a sam friend of mine started to do ridiculous damage with fudo(not even mentioning the skillchains). But I kind of get the feeling SE made Camlanns specifically to Skillchain with drakesbane. /Sam and the new jumps I can self SC at least 3 times in 5 min. Thats more than what I can do on my sam. Perhaps Camlanns isn't supposed to do incredible amounts of damage because of a dragoons rapid tp gain. Doing it this way you still get your aftermath and do about the same damage you would have done if you just did 2 drakesbanes back to back.

I love my Rhongo. Camlann's > Drakes > Drakes > Repeat. I have an easy 5 hit for the 2nd drakes and usually go no more than 5 seconds without my aftermath. I don't really have a problem with the VIT mod either. There is a ton of gear with both VIT and STR on it. You can hit near +70 VIT while maintaining +60ish STR. You can also trade VV/RR/Apoc for Savior/RR/Apoc. You lose the DA Regain and 20 STR but gain 30 VIT and a lot more survivability for you and your wyvern. I would be lying if I said I wouldn't like to see at least Fudo numbers out of Camlann's though.

would like that if pet got aftermath also

Yes Square-Enix PLEASE oh please adjust Camlann's Torment weapon skill. I have been playing drg for a very long time and finnaly through abyssea have the opportunity to get a good weapon for drg which is my favorite job. I worked very hard on getting the full version of the weapon with ws and aftermath and am very very disapointed. The weaponskill is one of the worst there is, there is no reason to use it which makes aftermath useless, and the weapon useless...

Red mage even gets a weapon skill that does easly double what dragoons does, which is just wrong for the dragoon community, along with the fact it's near impossible to keep our wyverns alive which if we can keep them alive long enough to pop out a healing breath which we still only have the highest teir healing breath from level 60... which is highly outdated.

The only way this weaponskill could possibly be worth useing is if the "ignores deffence" was 100% so it's mediocor damage would be at least decent on some type of HNM...

PLEASE SE HEAR MY CRY

For those who are curious, testing seems to indicate that Ryu is not only the best weapon for drg but the best weapon currently in the game.

Also, a Drg with one can be considered the best straight dd in the game if you do not count things such as counters or retaliation which can vary so it's hard to say without defining a very specific set of criteria. Granted this is based of theoretical testing meaning that without having exact damage formulas it can't be perfect and this is calculated so results can vary since both jobs would have to follow a very strict tp cycle to meet numbers like this.

If your curious there is a thread about it on AH.

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Originally Posted by Lancil

I don't want to go into the details, but you cannot do Camlanns>Camlanns>Camlanns for double light. You could do Camlanns>Drakes and close with Camlanns, or vice versa to make double.

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You are right, as far as my testing has shown. As for the second style, you can do this but it's VERY hard to do with just one drg because you have to hit that third ws before the light animation finishes. It is a very short window.

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Originally Posted by Sekundes

You are right, as far as my testing has shown. As for the second style, you can do this but it's VERY hard to do with just one drg because you have to hit that third ws before the light animation finishes. It is a very short window.

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Sekka + Jump timers up + Meditate = no problem.

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Originally Posted by Granny

Yes Square-Enix PLEASE oh please adjust Camlann's Torment weapon skill. I have been playing drg for a very long time and finnaly through abyssea have the opportunity to get a good weapon for drg which is my favorite job. I worked very hard on getting the full version of the weapon with ws and aftermath and am very very disapointed. The weaponskill is one of the worst there is, there is no reason to use it which makes aftermath useless, and the weapon useless...

Red mage even gets a weapon skill that does easly double what dragoons does, which is just wrong for the dragoon community, along with the fact it's near impossible to keep our wyverns alive which if we can keep them alive long enough to pop out a healing breath which we still only have the highest teir healing breath from level 60... which is highly outdated.

The only way this weaponskill could possibly be worth useing is if the "ignores deffence" was 100% so it's mediocor damage would be at least decent on some type of HNM...

PLEASE SE HEAR MY CRY

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SE answer to you is gear properly, of the people I have scene use CT don't have any issues braking 2k and going higher, wile not on par with drakes you should be able to maintain 2.5k+ CT's easly, if you don't have the gear to do this then you shouldn't have built the weapon first. Quitis can hit 3k in or out of abyssea if geared properly as well why they may not throw out the 5k+wtf lucky numbers the other ws can, but they both hold up better outside of abyssea, then most the others esp once we get new content when that ignoring defense is going to matter again. We aren't 99 yet chill out. Also CDC on a rdm can do twice as much ONLY if all the hits critical and you are inside abyssea with atmas for this, which if you go dd atma's purely on rdm you will be around 50% critical hit rate so. It would be nice, but no rdm lacks the sword skill and armor to be able to average anywhere near the numbers of a blu using CDC. Drg can also ws WAY more often, and self skillchain a light with CT(which before hand you where loosing damage for a weak skillchain if you wanted to skillchain for some odd reason) without going out of their way, where as rdm would have to be subbing samurai and have sekk up, in order to do this.

Please think logically instead of crying.

Okay, let's think logically then.

Please allow me to run the relevant math by you. The issue at hand is a disparity between CT and other non-crit Empyrean WS, such as Tachi: Fudo and Torcleaver; Let us perform an apples to apples comparison, using the level 85 weapons of two heavy DD jobs as examples.

Outside of Abyssea, Camlann's Torment's maximum damage is as follows, with 84 base VIT and this (link) weaponskill set.

FLOOR((125+21+77)*2.31*(3.0+0.1+0.1))=1648 damage; this does not change with TP.
Each additional hit yields a possibility of up to 688 damage.

In contrast, let us look at Torcleaver, another WS with a 60% VIT modifier. Unlike Camlann's Torment, it increases in damage with TP, whereas Camlann's Torment has a relatively useless 10% ignore defense property at 100% TP and scales linearly to 50% ignores defense at 300% TP, which is still useless outside of Abyssea due to pDIF almost always being capped. Inside Abyssea, Drakesbane is generally a far better choice by up to double, so the pragmatic choice is to just spam that, with few exceptions.

Outside of Abyssea, Torcleaver's maximum damage is as follows, with 84 base VIT and this (link) weaponskill set.

At 100, 200, and 300% TP:
FLOOR((109+20+73)*2.31*(4.75+0.1+0.1))=2309 damage.
FLOOR((109+20+73)*2.31*(5.75+0.1+0.1))=2933 damage.
FLOOR((109+20+73)*2.31*(6.5+0.1+0.1))=3557 damage, with additional hits capable of dealing up to 624 damage each.

Quietus suffers from the same problems as CT does, in addition to having a split modifier which is its own headache.

I want the fTP modifier increased for both of these WS.

Great to see people discussing this intelligently. The Rhongomiant actually suffers from a bad reputation in general, with a lot of people thinking it's "worthless" and that you're stupid to even think of working on it. I've had a few people literally tell me I'm "wasting my time". Around 13 fangs from my lv85 version now, so fortunately for them, I don't take their comments too seriously.

Not too hard to get a VIT build, like Insaniac said. I used to have one for the old jumps. And I agree with our wyverns needing Healing Breath IV but it would probably be limited, as you can do upwards of 1000+ HB III right now - outside of Abyssea, with proper gear set.

I too would like to see it buffed. I mean, I love drakes but not getting your aftermath from your primary damage ws really hurts this weapon's viability.

Yeah cal's torment isn't to do damage. We already have Drakesbane for that. Cal's torment is situational to break through mobs def. Like if your fighting...Genbu ^^ or turtles. Thing is SE balances out all the ws. So alot of the great ws you see on emp weapons was given to weapons that didn't have a multi-crit ws. As dragoons already have it, doesn't make sense for it to get another.

The problem is that it's terrible for that too. It only ignored 10% def at 100% TP, and at that rate you're better off spamming drakesbane anyway. Wheeling thrust may be horrible, but at least it ignores 50% def from the start.

Just got this my Rohngomiant85 last night and it is freakin sweet! Haven't tested it in abyssea yet, and I'd like to change my WS geara bit, but things that get stabbed during aftermath get dead!

Camlann's itself was doing anywhere from 1400-2000 on Little mobs in Miz. Coast. Crits for 900ish. Once I did spirit jump 612 immediately followed by soul jump 1214. It just looked cool in the log. Often times you know when a mob is hit by a WS because it's health bar just suddenly disappears. Last night? No WS, it's just me critting or jumping, heh.

Can't wait to get the lvl 90 upgrade!

I think they should do 100% ignores 50%, 200% ignores 75%, 300% ignores 100% armor. Why should we get shafted on our WS?

Ya, there is no doubt about it, we drg definatly should have Camlann's Torment ws balanced, as it stands it's makes Rohngomiant pointless for aftermath since draks will out damage, and it is NOT a situational weaponskill, it's a weaponskill in need of some love.

After playing with Camlann's a bit inside abyssea I have to agree that its usefulness is suspect.

I'd be happy to see a greater amount of defense ignored per TP% starting at 50% def ignored at 100%TP.

I'd also be happy to see the aftermath duration lengthened to 1min per 100% (3 min at 300%). 1.5 min of aftermath is not enough when camlann's damage is so low inside abyssea.

Any adjustment to either balance this WS's damage or utility or both would be welcome.

Lets hope with the up coming weaponskill adjustments Camlann's Torment will see some MUCH needed love.

Yeah Cal's Torment is definitely a situational ws. Triple damage ignoring def varying with tp. I'd only use it if the mob had high def and high evade. Drakesbane will outdamage Cal's torment everytime, especially in Abyssea where you have crit boosters if it lands all 4 hits. There's just no getting around that. Emp weaponskills weren't made to do damage for all jobs, it was to even out the inbalances. It gave multi-crit ws to all jobs that didn't have them. and it gave weird stuff to those that did have them.

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Originally Posted by Mookie

So alot of the great ws you see on emp weapons was given to weapons that didn't have a multi-crit ws. As dragoons already have it, doesn't make sense for it to get another.

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Kannagi, Blade: Jin. Ukonvasara, Raging Rush.