DRK defense...

Since we can cast magic... Why not gives us a defensive spell like like noctenshield or something, not sure if i spelled it right but i think its one of diabolos skill. I mean dread Spike is okay, but the recast time is meh... Like damn!. don't you guys play DRK and see how sad the job is at the moment?

omg, kagato you take this one.

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Originally Posted by Dart

omg, kagato you take this one.

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IDK what you're talking about...but drk deos need some more defensive capabilities. Dread Spikes is good but it don't cut it.

DRK/NIN or /MNK situationally is defensive enough if thats not enough there are jobs like NIN DNC MNK PLD which u can play which have far more defensive setups.

Btw DRK just got a huge boost which makes it a paper tank lol so asking for a phalanx like effect is dumb.

And if ya really wannt go into it, there is alot of defenisive type gear u can use of DRK from all the PLD/DRK crossover

Either way only new defensive stuff DRK should get is Break and Terror :)

Honestly tho the fun about DRK is the high risk high dmg aspect of it lol

DRK's defensive abilities lies in the available gear as well as our subjob choice. If you need to survive a long time as a DRK, either throw on a ton of +HP gear and use Dread spikes with your AF3+2 body on, or throw on a bunch of -PDT and -MDT gear.

Urteil would know more on the subject than me since he crafted his DRK to adapt to virtually every situation ever.

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

IDK what you're talking about...but drk deos need some more defensive capabilities. Dread Spikes is good but it don't cut it.

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get out ->

just wait soon this will become a defender is epic and dreadspikes sucks thread.

Noctoshield/Dark Phalanx is a great idea. Native defensive abilities/spells are a wonderful idea.

Dread spikes is way too short of a duration, if you're good at your sub job and have great gear reaching the limit of the 75%~ pool is impossible between PDT and Utsusemi bouncing.

Dread Spikes needs to last longer and needs a buff.

DRK has to get a lot of PDT/MDT to be viable, even then we are squishy and die far too quickly, and have to rely entirely on our sub jobs to survive.

I'd like to have native defense abilities because I can't go out and /dnc and solo bosses, and I also can't one shot NM's.

However Paladin now immortal to nearly 80% of monsters in the game, including some high profile targets, and I have to sit here timing Utsusemi like a Ninja main and swapping gear every 3 seconds from PDT to DD etc. So my damage suffers of I don't want to be a giant MP sponge and even then the effect isn't as great as one would hope for.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Noctoshield/Dark Phalanx is a great idea. Native defensive abilities/spells are a wonderful idea.

Dread spikes is way too short of a duration, if you're good at your sub job and have great gear reaching the limit of the 75%~ pool is impossible between PDT and Utsusemi bouncing.

Dread Spikes needs to last longer and needs a buff.

DRK has to get a lot of PDT/MDT to be viable, even then we are squishy and die far too quickly, and have to rely entirely on our sub jobs to survive.

I'd like to have native defense abilities because I can't go out and /dnc and solo bosses, and I also can't one shot NM's.

However Paladin now immortal to nearly 80% of monsters in the game, including some high profile targets, and I have to sit here timing Utsusemi like a Ninja main and swapping gear every 3 seconds from PDT to DD etc. So my damage suffers of I don't want to be a giant MP sponge and even then the effect isn't as great as one would hope for.

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Go play WAr if you want to tank .......


wait..

Sigh.

Dark Knight has historically been considered a "Glass Cannon", although now it's more like a "Glass 9mm".

Since I don't really feel that this needs an explanation, I'm going to leave you with this. If you don't end up face down in the dirt on DRK, You're doing it wrong.

take it from someone who's apoc tanked every damn mob in the game. riding that edge of dying in one bad tp move / tanking every mob 100 > 0 is the thrill/point of it. Drk defensive capabilities are fine. Better in fact than most dd jobs. If you don't know this then you lvl'd drk. but play another job 24/7.

ninja edit: Or you're just stupid, and god can't fix stupid.

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Originally Posted by Ayasha

Sigh.

Dark Knight has historically been considered a "Glass Cannon", although now it's more like a "Glass 9mm".

Since I don't really feel that this needs an explanation, I'm going to leave you with this. If you don't end up face down in the dirt on DRK, You're doing it wrong.

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Thats why in most FF games they use swords and shields right?

Oh okay.

Apocalypse tank? Where is it, and again you make the fatal and retarded flaw of judging a job based entirely on the possession of a relic weapon.

With a weapon that allows you to cure V yourself every 25 seconds I'M SURE tanking is easy, and your defensive capabilities are just fine.

Any job with that ability would find their defensive abilities to be "just fine."

Looks like God can't fix you.

wrong again, i've tanked tiamat without a relic many times. Just shadows and spells.

We're in the middle of the road (i'd argue for upper middle) for defensive capabilities due to our magic.

You really have no idea about drk do you?

Wait you're judging apoc by the curing aspect of it? That's so far off what made the weapon great that it just proves my point further.

You REALLY have no idea about drk do you?

Dart, what he's trying to say is that DRK has very little options to compensate survival with our high damage output, especially now. Catastrophe is awesome, sure, but it's still a relic.

Also, I'm not doubting that you tanked Tiamat without it, but for how long? Who was supporting you? What gear were you using? Unless you piled on the -PDT or evasion and were cure-bombed, it's honestly hard to believe you tanked Tiamat for a long period of time, especially if it was level 75 cap still. As far as your ninjitsu and dark magic, you'd need a lot of both along with a good fast cast build in order to reliably throw out shadows and dark magic spells without interruption.

So while I don't disagree, I think you're glorifying yourself a little bit too much against a decently powerful NM. If you did tank Tiamat the entire time or majority of the time, I wouldn't believe you at all if you also said it was both easy and required almost no heavy prep. After all, Dark Knights aren't designed to be tanks.

However, we should still have a few more native defensive options so we don't die as quickly as we already do. That's covered by gear choices and subjob choice. Our magic options are there, sure, but we only have 3 and they take a long time to cast and recast. We need something else. At least one more spell or alterations to our dark magic casting time and recasting time. Once we get in a situation where our spells get interrupted when we really need them cast, we're in a very bad situation.

There's also our parry level, which I feel should be much higher, especially if a Great Sword is equipped.

This isn't a matter of being strong enough to become a tank. It's a matter of having something new or updated to assure that we last longer. Glass Cannons we may be, but even after this new update that increased our DD power by a lot, we're no good to anyone if we die even faster as a result.

As I said, I feel DRK has a lot of options, but we're still missing something that stands out.

c

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Originally Posted by Kagato

Dart, what he's trying to say is that DRK has very little options to compensate survival with our high damage output, especially now. Catastrophe is awesome, sure, but it's still a relic.

Also, I'm not doubting that you tanked Tiamat without it, but for how long? Who was supporting you? What gear were you using? Unless you piled on the -PDT or evasion and were cure-bombed, it's honestly hard to believe you tanked Tiamat for a long period of time, especially if it was level 75 cap still. As far as your ninjitsu and dark magic, you'd need a lot of both along with a good fast cast build in order to reliably throw out shadows and dark magic spells without interruption.

So while I don't disagree, I think you're glorifying yourself a little bit too much against a decently powerful NM. If you did tank Tiamat the entire time or majority of the time, I wouldn't believe you at all if you also said it was both easy and required almost no heavy prep. After all, Dark Knights aren't designed to be tanks.

However, we should still have a few more native defensive options so we don't die as quickly as we already do. That's covered by gear choices and subjob choice. Our magic options are there, sure, but we only have 3 and they take a long time to cast and recast. We need something else. At least one more spell or alterations to our dark magic casting time and recasting time. Once we get in a situation where our spells get interrupted when we really need them cast, we're in a very bad situation.

There's also our parry level, which I feel should be much higher, especially if a Great Sword is equipped.

This isn't a matter of being strong enough to become a tank. It's a matter of having something new or updated to assure that we last longer. Glass Cannons we may be, but even after this new update that increased our DD power by a lot, we're no good to anyone if we die even faster as a result.

As I said, I feel DRK has a lot of options, but we're still missing something that stands out.

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good someone I can talk to.

tiamat and drk tanking in general before CE/VE nerfs:

Yup did tank tiamat without any form of dmg from my weapon at all since we always slept him while he landed. This was of course before the nerf to enmity gained from specific spells that drk also had access too. I was the co-tank with a very good pld friend in my old hnm shell. We duo tanked everything together for a good 4 years (for a little background)

Spellcast is what made it possible. I wasn't like taint with full +1 gear for drk (but I did/do have a great deal just not on his level). It was all in the micro management of macros (lol). full enmity builds for spell sets and spam over and over. Always /nin back in the 75 cap days for everything.

It was pretty simple to do with spell rotation consisting mostly of: sleep, bind, sleep1. The cumulative enmity gained over a prolonged fight where engaging wasn't the standard was really pretty insane. (think of pld and maximizing your flash build with enmity/recast) could hold hate even against very well geared blm's. It was standard tank party for those days. 2 tank, brd, whm, rdm. double march + haste being the key buffs.

For tiamat again the standard either fire resist or -mdt set (I went with an all purpose -mdt set for my multiple jobs and inventory room). You could also do this for khim if you needed too (take out stun) but anytime you can dd helps. Drk's even without apoc can do this due to our magic aspect that other jobs just didn't have access too. The nerf to enmity CE/VE levels of course really killed this so you have to rely on the damage aspect, which is why i've been so outspoken bout upping drk damage levels so that I can tank again!

parry always has and always will be too unreliable to count upon. its "oh hey parry awesome cool!" but you don't rely on it.

Outside our magical phase (which really is strong, and all the crying I see about it really makes me shake my head. We have something that none of the other dd jobs, outside blu, has and the vast majority of the playerbase does not utilize it fully. That being MAGIC!). we have the same def. capabilities as a war sans retaliation, (which i don't even consider to be defensive..). I do agree with one thing, shortening of recast timers would be very welcome addition to our arsenal.

As for where we stand in the hierarchy: outside evasion tanks (thf, nin, dnc (but thf and to a lesser degree dnc have serious issues with hate management) and pld and mnk are in classes all their own i believe that we really stand out for what we bring to the table to help ourselves and our group stay alive. Limiting dangerous tp moves with weapon bash/stun are hallmarks of what we can do/bring to the table. (not to mention saving our own necks) A quick sleep/bind to a mob on the designated healer etc I can go on and on.

inside abyssea /mnk is broken as is, and when you add onto everything we currently have I just cannot justify a need for more without going into "god mode". The only exception to this are mobs with that god awful dispel (hi2u bukhis/azdaja) even then shadows are just fine (really they're two of the very few mobs that I can justify going /nin too)

/sam has become the standard, x hit builds and all this. you know that removing casting penalties from seigan/hasso etc all good things.

Outside abyssea is more of a gray area to me. With the upcoming content still being figured out/incoming we'll have to see what the standard turns out to be.

Honestly kagato what do you want? Evasion like a thf, nin, dnc? A sentinel type ability? I'm not trying to be a douche about it but honestly what else outside reducing recast timers for what we have can we get without making every other job piss and moan. I cannot strongly state this enough, and its been the premise to everything that I've said for the entire drk forums. We don't need a bunch of new gadgets, se just needs to fix what we have!

Another huge step in the right direction is stalwart soul. Drk's universally feared their strongest JA. Founded or unfounded this was the general consensus of the ffxi community so it became true. Now we have a change to fully utilize this without the need of a 150mil goil can opener.

also its not about glorifying myself. I was inspired by the idea by reading about it on bg, then asked about what I would need in order to do it myself. This in turn made more than a few ls mates want to and eventually try it out with regular old weapons and they did it very well. Its about pushing the job to its limits something that the majority of the playerbase never looked into. You yourself i've found to be a knowledgeable fellow, one that I really enjoy throwing ideas around with, and didn't know about how a drk could tank tiamat, jormy, khim, cerb, nid, aspid without the need of a relic and for the most part out enmity a pld.

I don't mean for this to be a flame toward you kagato, but drk is nearly fixed. It just needs a little more. (ws phase, and yes after typing all this out it does need reduced recast timers imo it would not break the job).

holy crap that was a lot.

Honestly, what I want is a longer Dread Spikes duration and shorter Dark Magic casting times. Throw in a few new cool dark magic spells exclusive to DRK and I'll honestly be perfectly happy.

i agree with dart, i cotanked some hms in the exact manner he said an i by far am not a rich/apoc drk, the ce/ve nerf damn near destroyed this though. Id still like more defensive abilities cus im a greedy sonofaxxxxx lol like some of the spells ive suggested here somewhere and the fixing of our unique spells

i'm pretty happy with my stun set up. I've got the recast down about as low as you can get. I'll agree 100% about dread spikes but equally it isn't a spell that I count on to save my ass in a pinch. I leave that for stun/bash/shadows/thirdeye

Why does this thread even exist?

Kagato, are you seriously arguing that DRK needs gear, a support job, and proper support to tank HNMs, so it isn't a good tank? I'd like to see how far you get on a naked level 90 PLD against anything. And cure bombing? I'm not even going to explain why that's not a problem; it should be obvious.

and here come the trolls~

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Originally Posted by Dart

and here come the trolls~

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You called?

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Originally Posted by Kagato

This isn't a matter of being strong enough to become a tank. It's a matter of having something new or updated to assure that we last longer. Glass Cannons we may be, but even after this new update that increased our DD power by a lot, we're no good to anyone if we die even faster as a result.

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I honestly love having this problem more than suxing in DMG so bad u never have hate to worry about getting killed.

Either way i wouldn't say we lack defense i mean we can shadow tank pretty damn well with having access to stun and atm I'm pretty happy to sub /NIN in abyssea now with last resort lasting so long and focusing on crazy high melee DMG if i have to.

I think it would be nice to have something extra to our defense abiltys like terror or a hate loss tool but outside that ur pushing DRK into the tanking job terriorty and imo i don't think it fits DRK

Only reason i say that is i believe DRK and PLD have been designed to be oppisites
PLD the Light Warrior that sacrifices attack for defense
DRK the Dark Warrior that sacrifices defense for attack

Either way thats just my opinion if SE want to add it i say go for it i'm happy with DRK as it is atm so anything extra is a bonus.

jar your not a troll lol you actually quite often offer very solid conversation and debate, i know ive come to respect your opinon an input/voice on things even if i sometimes dont agree

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Originally Posted by Jar

You called?

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I may want to strangle you at times, but you're far from a troll to me.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Why does this thread even exist?

Kagato, are you seriously arguing that DRK needs gear, a support job, and proper support to tank HNMs, so it isn't a good tank? I'd like to see how far you get on a naked level 90 PLD against anything. And cure bombing? I'm not even going to explain why that's not a problem; it should be obvious.

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Well since you put it that way, I guess DRK can survive just fine wearing absolutely nothing with no subjob at all and is solo.

Quick, Dart! We must test this theory of the wise one named Tybudx! Hurry and strip! The fate of our successful linkshell events lies in our ability to tank NEKKID!

christ on a pogo stick what is this shit?

lmaorofgg "christ on a pogo stick!" that is so made of win ima use in lschat tonight over an over!

There needs to be a pic of that.

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"Kagato, are you seriously arguing that DRK needs gear, a support job, and proper support to tank HNMs, so it isn't a good tank?"

Well since you put it that way, I guess DRK can survive just fine wearing absolutely nothing with no subjob at all and is solo.

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You misunderstand. Here, this is you implying that DRK needing to have proper gear, support, and preparation means that it isn't a good tank:

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Originally Posted by Kagato

Also, I'm not doubting that you tanked Tiamat without it, but for how long? Who was supporting you? What gear were you using? Unless you piled on the -PDT or evasion and were cure-bombed, it's honestly hard to believe you tanked Tiamat for a long period of time, especially if it was level 75 cap still. As far as your ninjitsu and dark magic, you'd need a ... good fast cast build in order to reliably throw out shadows and dark magic spells without interruption.
... If you did tank Tiamat the entire time or majority of the time, I wouldn't believe you at all if you also said it was both easy and required almost no heavy prep. After all, Dark Knights aren't designed to be tanks.

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Except PLD requires (required) the exact same 'heavy prep' that you call for to tank, same support, same gear, same party set ups. The difference is DRK kills faster (safer).

So yeah, christ on a pogo stick, go tell your LSs that you guys can't read. Have fun with that.

ummm drk isn't safer, its a high risk/ high reward tank strategy. Do you even have basic reading comprehension? Or an above 8th grade education?

Also without proper support drk is a very medicore, even into the realm of bad tank. Pld on the other hand is made for low man holding and tanking with minimum support, it also functions very well as a dd with minimum support. .

Really do you have any idea about anything that you're talking about?

i loled when he said pld needs support

What exactly are you 'tanking' on PLD that a DRK can't kill faster? Yeah sure, PLD can hold mobs better, but unless it can solo them you need somebody to actually kill it in a decent amount of time. And high risk? Whu? Because PLD has so much more VIT and def than DRK, right? Oh wait, it's because PLD has shadows... no wait, it's because DRK needs to be cured bombed (it doesn't). Except for holding situations and pre-Abyssea AV and PW, there's nothing that required PLD's level of survivability. You couldn't beat AV at the time, and PW... lol one mob. So yeah, I guess DRK is a horrible tank. My bad.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

What exactly are you 'tanking' on PLD that a DRK can't kill faster? Yeah sure, PLD can hold mobs better, but unless it can solo them you need somebody to actually kill it in a decent amount of time. And high risk? Whu? Because PLD has so much more VIT and def than DRK, right? Oh wait, it's because PLD has shadows... no wait, it's because DRK needs to be cured bombed (it doesn't). Except for holding situations and pre-Abyssea AV and PW, there's nothing that required PLD's level of survivability. You couldn't beat AV at the time, and PW... lol one mob. So yeah, I guess DRK is a horrible tank. My bad.

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go learn what a shield is kid it is the single reason pld is a tank

and if you really think you can tank go /sam like you should stupid..

DRK doesnt need any defensive buff because it's right about where WAR is in that regard. and we dont want them buffing that over our DD

Also sadly PLD is about as strong as DRK inside abyssea just because of the crit weaponskill and the latest crit buff..

Seriously, Tybud, you should probably leave the DRK forum. When you start saying DRK tanks better than PLD because they "kill faster" then you're pretty much diving right off the deep end into a pool of insanity.

Seriously, get out. You haven't said a single correct thing since you got here.

I had a really nice post going but I hit the backspace key on my mouse by accident and lost the damn things. So i'll sum up about a page worth of stuff with:


kill yourself

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Originally Posted by TybudX

What exactly are you 'tanking' on PLD that a DRK can't kill faster? Yeah sure, PLD can hold mobs better, but unless it can solo them you need somebody to actually kill it in a decent amount of time. And high risk? Whu? Because PLD has so much more VIT and def than DRK, right? Oh wait, it's because PLD has shadows... no wait, it's because DRK needs to be cured bombed (it doesn't). Except for holding situations and pre-Abyssea AV and PW, there's nothing that required PLD's level of survivability. You couldn't beat AV at the time, and PW... lol one mob. So yeah, I guess DRK is a horrible tank. My bad.

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This is either trolling or just being dumb or you play with the worst PLDs in FFXI.

Either way drop it you make no sense.

btw holy crap somthing Dart,me,Jar and Kag agree on .... i think hell has froze over.