Dynamic Gameplay Discussed

I've been up late, because my creative mind is in top gear and came up with this example of extreme dynamics. How I think future HNM or "Uber" boss battles should be. I'd like to know what you think of this type of gameplay, if it catches your interest or not.

The first little quote was taken from Natenn's "Pro-HNM" thread which was popular, but hasn't gotten much new posts. So I decided to cater to the idea of making an HNM fight more difficult regarding battle tactics, so that if claimed, there would need to be constant focus by the alliance, or risk losing their claim.

Anyhow, here goes.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

There are only three possibilities for HNM "challenge"

A. A 100% win strategy is figured out, and it becomes easy.

B. It's impossible to kill (e.g. oldschool Absolute Virtue)

C. Whether you win or loose is a lottery based on what it does. Either you get lucky and win or you are unlucky and it does something and destroys you.

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SOLUTION.

Alter Point C. so that it does a devastating effect when it reaches 50% HP (ensuring that all tanks, healers, mages and DD need to be topped off with near full HP to survive), instead of having it "luckily destroy you".

Mix Point A. with C. so that the win strategy changes on the fly, depending on what "Phase" the NM is in. This would force players to be on their toes all the time, raising the difficulty significantly. Have AT LEAST 3 or more of these "Phases" that would play out in a random order (very important).

The "Phase" shifting would occur at randomly timed intervals, to ensure that nobody loses focus, or that it feels too robotic. These timed intervals would also be a random amount, (such as 1, 3 and 5 minutes) and that order would never be repeated in a single fight.

EXAMPLE: Dragon Type~ NM

Phase 1: On the ground.
- The Dragon is highly susceptible to Melee Damage, but is Resistant to Magic and Ranged Attacks.
- The Dragon dishes out high Melee Damage and Enfeebles to the Front Line Jobs.
- The Melee and Tank have their work cut out for them in this stage. Melee needs to do damage quick, but not pull hate off the Tank and die. The Tank needs keep hate from the Melee so that they don't pull hate and get KO'd.

Phase 2: Standing on Hind Legs, Wings Glowing.
- The Dragon is highly resistant to Ranged Attacks and Melee Attacks, but Magic cures the Dragon or is reflected back to the caster.
- The Dragon deals incredible high AoE damage that targets a single person (hopefully the tank)
- The Melee have to get out of range quick, to avoid being KO'd by it's heavy AoE.
- The Healers have their work cut out for them in this phase. They have to make sure the Tank stays alive and is topped off to survive his massive beatings.
- The Mages need to HOLD nukes, so that the Dragon won't get healed/reflect damage to them. And possibly help out with cures and removing status effects~

Phase 3: Flying in the Air
- The Dragon is highly susceptible to Ranged Attacks and Magic Damage
- The Dragon dishes out Ranged AoE Attacks on random targets with no enmity table.
- The Entire Alliance would have to spread out, in order for their to be less damage taken as a whole. But not too far from the healers, so that they can still heal you.
- The Ranged Attackers and Mages get to work and blast him hard in this Phase.
- The Tanks and Melee position themselves so that if they get hit with an AoE blast from above, its not near other BUSY members.

Random Time rotation of Phases.

Phase 1: lasts 3 minutes
Phase 3: lasts 5 minutes ======= Section 1
Phase 2: lasts 1 minute

Phase 3: lasts 1 minute
Phase 2: lasts 3 minutes ======= Section 2
Phase 1: lasts 1 minute

Phase 2: lasts 5 minutes
Phase 3: lasts 3 minutes ======= Section 3
Phase 1: lasts 5 minutes

You can mix and match each section, and there would be countless possibilities for the Phases to be random each and every battle.

Adding this sort of extreme dynamics, would crank up the difficulty and make the fight rely heavily on focus, teamwork and coordination. Rather than it being just solely based on gear/stats/equipment.

And...

Point B. is irrelevant. Absolute Virtue was not impossible to defeat, just extremely difficult +3.

AV little trick of locking the two hours was tryed over and over by the player base, just if you wait till it shows in the log that it 2houred it was to late to lock it. Foe something like this even for the so called "hardcore player" would have to drop something really good and not just a sidegrade.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

AV little trick of locking the two hours was tryed over and over by the player base, just if you wait till it shows in the log that it 2houred it was to late to lock it. Foe something like this even for the so called "hardcore player" would have to drop something really good and not just a sidegrade.

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Well I've seen people around who currently have the rings that drop from AV. So unless you can obtain those rings from somewhere else, then I'm pretty sure there have been some people that have defeated AV. Granted this was post 75, but still doesn't make AV impossible.

And the example battle given above, applied to all bosses each having their own unique dynamic way to be defeated. Then I doubt people would complain. The only complaint would be of course what it dropped and how much of it. You could make it have a big drop table of various gear for mages, tanks, melee, healers and ranged attackers. Let it drop at least 1 piece for each job type, and let there be at least 2~3 different pieces for each job type.

I'm merely talking about difficulty of battle regarding dynamics. Because it seems like nowadays, if you have all the best gear then most bosses are cakewalk. It should be both: Having good/decent gear AND being skilled at battle tactics.

Obtaining better gear shouldn't make bosses easier, it should make them actually defeat-able.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Well I've seen people around who currently have the rings that drop from AV. So unless you can obtain those rings from somewhere else, then I'm pretty sure there have been some people that have defeated AV. Granted this was post 75, but still doesn't make AV impossible.

And the example battle given above, applied to all bosses each having their own unique dynamic way to be defeated. Then I doubt people would complain. The only complaint would be of course what it dropped and how much of it. You could make it have a big drop table of various gear for mages, tanks, melee, healers and ranged attackers. Let it drop at least 1 piece for each job type, and let there be at least 2~3 different pieces for each job type.

I'm merely talking about difficulty of battle regarding dynamics. Because it seems like nowadays, if you have all the best gear then most bosses are cakewalk. It should be both: Having good/decent gear AND being skilled at battle tactics.

Obtaining better gear shouldn't make bosses easier, it should make them actually defeat-able.

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I have a Minerva's and a Bellona's, AV is easy as pie. But I don't think you'd like the way AV is being killed now anyways.


(hint: It's zerged with Perfect Defense and dies in 30 seconds. Not really "Dynamic")

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I have a Minerva's and a Bellona's, AV is easy as pie. But I don't think you'd like the way AV is being killed now anyways.


(hint: It's zerged with Perfect Defense and dies in 30 seconds. Not really "Dynamic")

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I would appreciate it, if people would stop bypassing every other point in my post and just refer to something trivial that's said which makes up 1% of the discussion.

You seem to just want to bash peoples good ideas, because you're not talking about anything positive towards how to create more dynamic boss battles. Instead you imply that I'm a "Noob" because I don't Zerg everything like you do. Same sort of stuff that happened in the "A Ninja without Throwing" thread. Try something new and different, please.

And if you didn't already realize, the point of this thread is how to take "Zerging" out of the game.

What if a mob had multiple points of attack, similar to the way a Fortification has four sides you can attack, and you have to attack those first to weakening the main point of attack. Probably not do-able but I recall a few battles like that in other FF series.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

the point of this thread is how to take "Zerging" out of the game.

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I like zerging :[ it makes my e-peen hard

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Originally Posted by Akujima

I would appreciate it, if people would stop bypassing every other point in my post and just refer to something trivial that's said which makes up 1% of the discussion.

You seem to just want to bash peoples good ideas, because you're not talking about anything positive towards how to create more dynamic boss battles. Instead you imply that I'm a "Noob" because I don't Zerg everything like you do. Same sort of stuff that happened in the "A Ninja without Throwing" thread. Try something new and different, please.

And if you didn't already realize, the point of this thread is how to take "Zerging" out of the game.

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I thought my point was very relevant. You said that AV was not impossible (it was), it was just incredibly difficult (it's not when it's zerged). It was implied that you believed players were able to kill AV without zerging, and they're not. You cited the fact that people have AV items as proof, and I'm telling you that even I have AV items and my shell most definitely does not kill AV without zerging. Heck, most of the time we kill it with 10~ or so.

All of this goes back to your post a few lines up, wherein you said that "Point B is irrelevant". It is not, and that is why. AV was most certainly impossible, and most certainly still is impossible to kill in the "Normal", "Dynamic" way.

Also, saying that I bash people's good ideas implies that the ideas I "bash" are good. When you present a case, you leave yourself open to criticism. I have not launched any personal attacks against you. I am simply saying that certain points you present are patently incorrect. It is then your responsibility as the presenter of the idea to either dispute my claim, or accept my claim and change your presentation in such a way that it would no longer be incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It is then your responsibility as the presenter of the idea to either dispute my claim, or accept my claim and change your presentation in such a way that it would no longer be incorrect.

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Even if AV was "Impossible" because of an obvious Flaw in Dynamics from the developers, doesn't mean that the solution should be to just get rid of dynamics entirely and result to the "Zerg Method".

If a fight becomes literally IMPOSSIBLE, then the dynamics are obviously flawed somehow and need to be adjusted.

Point proved.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Even if AV was "Impossible" because of an obvious Flaw in Dynamics from the developers, doesn't mean that the solution should be to just get rid of dynamics entirely and result to the "Zerg Method".

If a fight becomes literally IMPOSSIBLE, then the dynamics are obviously flawed somehow and need to be adjusted.

Point proved.

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Oh. I didn't know we were discussing tautologies. If that's the case, I should probably contribute something meaningful to the discussion.

Water is wet.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Oh. I didn't know we were discussing tautologies. If that's the case, I should probably contribute something meaningful to the discussion.

Water is wet.

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You know I could report this post for being sarcastic pointless dribble. But I won't. Because you're correct. Water IS wet.

You think that things exist without having characteristics? What is a RNG without a bow and a gun? What is a BLM that can never cast offensive spells?

Using sarcasm to win "Like" button presses, does not disregard the point in how making everything a "Zerg" blurs the line of Job characteristics.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

You know I could report this post for being sarcastic pointless dribble. But I won't. Because you're correct. Water IS wet.

You think that things exist without having characteristics? What is a RNG without a bow and a gun? What is a BLM that can never cast offensive spells?

Using sarcasm to win "Like" button presses, does not disregard the point in how making everything a "Zerg" blurs the line of Job characteristics.

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It was about as thoughtful as the post above it. I was simply speaking on topic.

The fact of the matter is simple. Jobs in FFXI are not as unique as you want them to be. At the core of the job system is the Character. The Character is then given Traits, Skills, Abilities, and Spells based on what job they are on. But they will always be a Character. Characters will always follow certain rules. Characters are augmented by their jobs, they are not defined by them.

When a Character chooses the Ranger Job, their proficiency with the Bow and the Gun is enhanced. They are given Traits, Skills, and Abilities which serve to enhance their Ranged abilities. A Ranger does not have to use a Bow, or a Gun, or even a Boomerang at all though. They can use a Dagger, or a Sword. Rangers use Bows and Guns because that is the most effective way for them to deal damage.

Likewise, it is not the case that "Everything" has to be zerged. Players will simply do what is most effective. If that happens to be a zerg, people will do it. Zerging is powerful. In some cases, like AV, it is impossible to kill some NMs without zerging them. In others, like Bahamut v2, it is simply much more efficient to zerg them.

With that said, it's not like the game prohibits you from killing things without zerging in pretty much every case aside from AV. You are more than welcome to fight and kill things dynamically on your own time with your own friends. As the game does not prevent this, I don't see why there is any real ground for an adjustment to the game.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Likewise, it is not the case that "Everything" has to be zerged. Players will simply do what is most effective. If that happens to be a zerg, people will do it. Zerging is powerful. In some cases, like AV, it is impossible to kill some NMs without zerging them. In others, like Bahamut v2, it is simply much more efficient to zerg them.

With that said, it's not like the game prohibits you from killing things without zerging in pretty much every case aside from AV. You are more than welcome to fight and kill things dynamically on your own time with your own friends. As the game does not prevent this, I don't see why there is any real ground for an adjustment to the game.

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Sure. You could just pick up the chess table and smash it on the ground (Zerg) because you're tired of having to use careful planned out strategy in order to win. But did you actually win according to how chess is supposed to be won?

Point of this thread is to incorporate the strategy back into the game. And not allow "Ah lets just Zerg it" to be the only method. I realize how efficient "Zerging" is, but this is a game after all, not real life.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Sure. You could just pick up the chess table and smash it on the ground (Zerg) because you're tired of having to use careful planned out strategy in order to win. But did you actually win according to how chess is supposed to be won?

Point of this thread is to incorporate the strategy back into the game. And not allow "Ah lets just Zerg it" to be the only method. I realize how efficient "Zerging" is, but this is a game after all, not real life.

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Bad analogy, yet again. Here, let's re-use the Maze analogy from the other thread. In a "Dynamic" fight, you try to find your way through the maze. In a Zerg fight, you just run straight through the walls.

Both ways, you win. When you zerg, you win faster. Is it as "refined" as finding your way through the maze? No. Is it less correct, though? No. The only objective is to get from the entrance to the exit of the maze. When you have the ability to just break through the walls, it is not "Wrong" or "Incorrect" to utilize the abilities you are given.

As I have already pointed out, "Ah let's zerg it" is not the only method to anything aside from AV. There is always the option to kill things in other ways. Just because some players choose to zerg things does not mean the game is broken. "Dynamic" strategy is there if players choose to utilize it. It is simply more work for less reward (over time) to do so. If you consider the strategy fun, go kill things strategically with like-minded friends. That is all there is to it.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Sure. You could just pick up the chess table and smash it on the ground (Zerg) because you're tired of having to use careful planned out strategy in order to win. But did you actually win according to how chess is supposed to be won?

Point of this thread is to incorporate the strategy back into the game. And not allow "Ah lets just Zerg it" to be the only method. I realize how efficient "Zerging" is,

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but this is a game after all, not real life.

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Don't use real life analogies on it. The premise of your analogy is also incorrect because, as you stated,

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But did you actually win according to how chess is supposed to be won?

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when in this case, zerging does "win chess how it's supposed to be won" because the game allows it to happen and it is not marked as a glitch. Whether or not you LIKE the strategy is irrelevant: it is legitimate. A win is legitimate as long as I stay within game rules, whether I want to zerg it, SC+MB it, throw 18 PUPs at it or whatever.

But yes, I have to agree with GreatGuardian. It is difficult to make truly dynamic fights because the basic system is not incredibly dynamic to begin with. People will always use the most efficient way to defeat something which tends to be the simplest because the less variables you have to contend with, the greater your odds of success.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

"Dynamic" strategy is there if players choose to utilize it. It is simply more work for less reward (over time) to do so. If you consider the strategy fun, go kill things strategically with like-minded friends. That is all there is to it.

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Pointless to continue this.

It's just like what someone else said in another thread: "If you want a hard battle, go fight Shinryu without a brew." Implying that we're handicapped so much, we're unable to utilize the best tactics available to us. If I wanted difficult battles, brew's should never have been introduced in the first place.

I never said AV hadn't ever been killed. AV was down many times before SE nerf Soul eater blood weapon after they lowered its HP. This also not counting the wyvern glich, NPC, or wall of justice. Just saying that the trick SE keep going on about was tested many times and brought up and shot down in hundreds of threads. Even if those that exploited the glich were banned the items that they had sold were not removed. My point remains if the reward is not good enough and only side grade, which SE has done count less times in the past no one will kill it outside the first few to find out what they drop.

Take PW nothing of any real value came from the mob. That and the pops for it were used for mystics ever one that poped T4 znm wanted the pops for thier weapons not poping a mob that was not worth the time.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It was about as thoughtful as the post above it. I was simply speaking on topic.

The fact of the matter is simple. Jobs in FFXI are not as unique as you want them to be. At the core of the job system is the Character. The Character is then given Traits, Skills, Abilities, and Spells based on what job they are on. But they will always be a Character. Characters will always follow certain rules. Characters are augmented by their jobs, they are not defined by them.

When a Character chooses the Ranger Job, their proficiency with the Bow and the Gun is enhanced. They are given Traits, Skills, and Abilities which serve to enhance their Ranged abilities. A Ranger does not have to use a Bow, or a Gun, or even a Boomerang at all though. They can use a Dagger, or a Sword. Rangers use Bows and Guns because that is the most effective way for them to deal damage.

Likewise, it is not the case that "Everything" has to be zerged. Players will simply do what is most effective. If that happens to be a zerg, people will do it. Zerging is powerful. In some cases, like AV, it is impossible to kill some NMs without zerging them. In others, like Bahamut v2, it is simply much more efficient to zerg them.

With that said, it's not like the game prohibits you from killing things without zerging in pretty much every case aside from AV. You are more than welcome to fight and kill things dynamically on your own time with your own friends. As the game does not prevent this, I don't see why there is any real ground for an adjustment to the game.

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This guy is really making good points here.
I would have to agree that Players will simply do what is most effective. If that happens to be a zerg, it will be done pretty much.

In ACP final fight with the crystal, you had 2 methods of beating it, the Zerging method or the Ranging method.
I beat it with the Range method but lost to the zerg method.
But both methods are fun to do if you execute them right.
So ya. =)

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Pointless to continue this.

It's just like what someone else said in another thread: "If you want a hard battle, go fight Shinryu without a brew." Implying that we're handicapped so much, we're unable to utilize the best tactics available to us. If I wanted difficult battles, brew's should never have been introduced in the first place.

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Thats the point if you don't want to brew and do things the long way not even hard then you are free to do so. Just don't be mad if shout groups want to take the least amount of chances for failing. Can't find five others that share you view on how to do shin then that should be a hint, but there are players that don't brew just look for them.

SE have already made a lot of mobs 'zerg-proof'. Just look at all the abyssea mobs which absorb certain damage when casting/using TP moves. Try throwing 3 parties of SV marched DDs at half the abyssea bosses and see how well that goes for you. If you don't heal it to 100% you're just gonna get owned by a lot of the AoE moves.

Problem is, eventually every fight will be dissected and broken down to a near 100% win strategy similar to point A. Really the only way to ensure a challenging fight is random elements that cannot be neatly broken down or catagorized. For example, Proto-Ultima during it's multiple stages (especially with random screens), Vrtra, and so forth.

It's sad really, they added loads of difficult and fun mobs in Abyssea and then added overpowered atmas and brews that made the work pointless. Every mob in Aby should just be a colored blob with no tp moves, considering they ****** all over then with the overpowered player buffs.

If they had added many of the aby mobs outside of Abyssea they would be some of the hardest fights in the game. Rani alone is close to AV quality (try it with no atmas and curor buffs, let alone a brew).

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Originally Posted by Runespider

It's sad really, they added loads of difficult and fun mobs in Abyssea and then added overpowered atmas and brews that made the work pointless. Every mob in Aby should just be a colored blob with no tp moves, considering they ****** all over then with the overpowered player buffs.

If they had added many of the aby mobs outside of Abyssea they would be some of the hardest fights in the game. Rani alone is close to AV quality (try it with no atmas and curor buffs, let alone a brew).

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You realize that without cruor buffs Meteor would one shot EVERYONE outside of aby no matter what, right? "Close to AV quality" It would be literally impossible since Meteor is a 25' range spell and deals upwards of 3.5k damage. Hume MNK 8/8 HP merits has around 1800 HP outside of aby depending on gear, with 50% MDT (Capped) you'd still die. AV is beatable, Rani wouldn't be without cruor/atma/72 mules or mindless LS followers that do the leader's bidding.

Other than Refresh atma, there's nothing that really makes Atma the reason that abyssea mobs are easy. The mobs are easy because they are easy.

If SE wanted to make them hard, all they'd have to do is up the HP and the damage output so that any DD couldn't tank. Not necessarily take away atma.

Of course take away refresh atma and everyone just needs a BRD and a RDM again, so it's not that big of a deal.

Take all of that stuff away and we would probably resort to the tried and true method of 2PLD/NIN some refreshers, some healers, some nukers, and then DD/THF SATAing onto the PLDs. It wouldn't make the content hard, it'd just make it really long and boring. (Never found /THF fun imo)

I like how the OP suggests SE introduce more content with CoP (storyline) type battles. I am all for more CoP level stuff. Lets put big neon signs on all the players without certain mission rewards that say "I'm not smart enough to die where we zoned in".

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I like how the OP suggests SE introduce more content with CoP (storyline) type battles. I am all for more CoP level stuff. Lets put big neon signs on all the players without certain mission rewards that say "I'm not smart enough to die where we zoned in".

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If this is sarcasm, you made me lol.

If not then you made me sadface.