Dear SE, why are level 60 healers useful in abyssea, while lv60 DDs are useless?

Of course, I know why, because healing magic is just as efficient in there, while accuracy and attack of a melee is way too low.

Of course, this leads to melees not getting any abyssea party invites until level 75 (or if they're lucky, 70), and is also unable to make parties in the level range of 60-75 because no healers would be interested in joining their party when they can get an abyssea invite.

Now of course, there is level sync that will allow us to party at a level where mages are still not useful in abyssea, which will still let us get parties here and there. However, with all mages 60+ being in abyssea, the amount of LFPing healers per LFPing DD is now lower than ever, making it pretty hard to get a party started for those DDs that are trying to get those last 10 levels before entering abyssea.

Please do not reply with "lol you should just keywhore ur job". Keywhoring is extremely boring, and I cannot believe SE *really* wanted everyone to keywhore their jobs instead of trying to make normal parties.

Why are healers unbalanced in the way that they can contribute heavily to an alliance of players that are 30 levels above them, when DDs are left with not a chance to do anything useful at all, except pop chests, which any job, any level could do? I think this is unbalanced.

BRDs were in merit parties ever since they learned March2. A good RDM or WHM could keep up with a bird party at level 60 or less. This isn't anything new.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

BRDs were in merit parties ever since they learned March2. A good RDM or WHM could keep up with a bird party at level 60 or less. This isn't anything new.

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This, and then some.
One could argue the "balance" comes with the fact there's so few healer options and yet so many DD options.

Bloody hell is everyone on these forums tonight drunk? this is like the 4th utterly retarded thread ive seen pop up.

I know it's nothing new, but that doesn't mean it's not imbalanced.

Also, a party can function without a bard, but not without a healer.

The problem is bigger now because you don't even have to be a good healer to keep up with an abyssesa exp party, so even fewer are left outside.

Also healing jobs just suck in general. When the party wipes, who gets blamed? Healer. Could be 5DRK/WAR's full-timing Berserk and Soul-eater and 1 single WHM curing them and if 1 dies "OMG WHM YOU SUCK I QUIT THIS STUPID PARTY".

Lul I'm over-stating it but yeah :P

mirage is the new hordecore ;o

Why. Explain why healers shouldn't be balanced like other jobs are.

K lets balance them cuz your low lvl dd can't hit a mob and then see all the epic whining threads that pop up because people cant stay alive in abyssea. If you dont like it, play a heal job.

I already do, and grinded it in abyssea from about level 60. Doesn't change the facts that it's been unbalanced since the game started.

People would stay alive just as fine in abyssea if they just got a level 75+ job to heal them instead.

Funny though that you assume the only reason i care about balance is because I don't have one of the jobs that are imba. Is it really that rare to not be biased? Or at least try not to be.

Another way do deal with it isto just avoid the issue entirely by buffing exp from level 50+ enemies in vanadiel to close to abyssea levels! The issue doesn't have to be fixed by nerfing anything, really. Everyone could be happy.

I can see why you have an issue, it's not that easy to find healers outside of Aby and actually, I've found it's not easy to find healers inside Aby, I get invites as a healer, but then struggle to find my own rep, heck I was invited to Aby at level 50 because they couldn't find a healer, it wasn't easy, but it worked. Sometimes I'm lucky in finding a healer, sometimes I'm not. I guess fewer people are attracted to the healer jobs.

But I don't see there being a solution or a need for one - if you can't find a healer for a 60+ party, it might be worth asking around if people don't mind jumping onto a healer job or compromise and level sync to whatever healers are out there. But I'll say this, I am a healer who's happy to party wherever I'm useful - I'll even throw in some nukes for free. Level 60+ parties are a bonus because I love WG parties.

Of course, I'll agree that a major part of the problem is that everyone wants to deal tons of damage instead of being a fragile healer.

I don't pretend to have an easy solution to the problem, I'm just stating that one of the reasons why it is like this in the mid-levels now is because mid-level mages are actually useful in abyssea where the exp is 5x of the rest of the game, while mid-level DDs are not useful in abyssea and therefore all have to compete for the "key whore" position, which half of the time is filled by the alliance leader.

As far as I can see, there are 3 solutions to the problem.

Buffing DDs to be able to reliably damage mobs 40 levels above them (bad idea)
Nerfing healing damage when cast on significantly higher level target, such as a lv60 healing a level 90. (not the best of ideas either)
Buffing exp on enemies lv 50-75 players exp on significantly, so that healers would actually want to care about leveling outside of abyssea. This is however still gonna have a hard time pulling people out of abyssea.

Another idea could be to make it more attractive to play as healers, but I don't know how. "Healthbars - The Game" just isn't for everyone.

It's nice of you to want to party even in areas where the exp isn't the best, there are however very few people who would do that. I have tried asking people i know ingame if they want to heal my party, but there just isn't anything in it for them, and I understand them perfectly well.

And yes, I am compromising and syncing down to eronfaure, but the problem is still there. If every lv60-75 melee DD syncs to lv20-50, you suddenly have twice as many DDs in that range, and not any more healers than you had before.

what is this i dont even....

*coughaddalevel75captosolvealltheproblemsofabysseacough*

Why would anyone want cures to 'resist' on higher-level players?

Why does everyone's 'solutions' on this board involve either nerfing the bejesus out of something or making something retardedly overpowered?

Hay guyz, let's make Full Break replace the debuffing abilities of every melee and mage in the game!

Nerf Healers? Really? Healers are rare in every MMO, and y'all want to make it even harder to find people to heal parties/exp alliances in FFXI?

Pretty simple, a mage requires no accuracy to cure a party/allliance member because this is beneficial to them. A DD does require accuracy to kill things, which is a crime in most places.

Will a 90 whm main heal better than a 62 whm? Yes they will, but that 62 whm can sure heal better than a 90 rdm.

It's not imbalanced, it just seems to me you want to do more while you leech your dd jobs.

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Originally Posted by Novax

Pretty simple, a mage requires no accuracy to cure a party/allliance member because this is beneficial to them. A DD does require accuracy to kill things, which is a crime in most places.

Will a 90 whm main heal better than a 62 whm? Yes they will, but that 62 whm can sure heal better than a 90 rdm.

It's not imbalanced, it just seems to me you want to do more while you leech your dd jobs.

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And I like how no one even mentions the fact that these low-level healers can't take hits, can't do crowd-controlling of any kind, and can't land any debuffs aside from dia and bio.

I healed an accidental Melo-Melo fight on my 46WHM. I healed/hasted entire alliances while taking RDM from 49-90. A low-level healer is not optimal by any means for a variety of reasons, but it does work in a pinch. And it has for years.

If you really want to be useful while on a lower level DD, go /WHM and use MM. Cure III at 42 is enough to be semi-useful.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Of course, I'll agree that a major part of the problem is that everyone wants to deal tons of damage instead of being a fragile healer.

I don't pretend to have an easy solution to the problem, I'm just stating that one of the reasons why it is like this in the mid-levels now is because mid-level mages are actually useful in abyssea where the exp is 5x of the rest of the game, while mid-level DDs are not useful in abyssea and therefore all have to compete for the "key whore" position, which half of the time is filled by the alliance leader.

As far as I can see, there are 3 solutions to the problem.

Buffing DDs to be able to reliably damage mobs 40 levels above them (bad idea)
Nerfing healing damage when cast on significantly higher level target, such as a lv60 healing a level 90. (not the best of ideas either)
Buffing exp on enemies lv 50-75 players exp on significantly, so that healers would actually want to care about leveling outside of abyssea. This is however still gonna have a hard time pulling people out of abyssea.

Another idea could be to make it more attractive to play as healers, but I don't know how. "Healthbars - The Game" just isn't for everyone.

It's nice of you to want to party even in areas where the exp isn't the best, there are however very few people who would do that. I have tried asking people i know ingame if they want to heal my party, but there just isn't anything in it for them, and I understand them perfectly well.

And yes, I am compromising and syncing down to eronfaure, but the problem is still there. If every lv60-75 melee DD syncs to lv20-50, you suddenly have twice as many DDs in that range, and not any more healers than you had before.

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okay ive got a character created for healing and this whole thread is retarded. You're suggestions are beyond the quote "WHAT THE FU-" you would rather force healers out of abyssea then actually have them useful regardless? (i was main healing bird parties from 50 fyi.)

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Originally Posted by Juri_Licious

*coughaddalevel75captosolvealltheproblemsofabysseacough*

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*coughreduceabyssealevelcapto1cough*

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Of course, I know why, because healing magic is just as efficient in there, while accuracy and attack of a melee is way too low.

Of course, this leads to melees not getting any abyssea party invites until level 75 (or if they're lucky, 70), and is also unable to make parties in the level range of 60-75 because no healers would be interested in joining their party when they can get an abyssea invite.

Now of course, there is level sync that will allow us to party at a level where mages are still not useful in abyssea, which will still let us get parties here and there. However, with all mages 60+ being in abyssea, the amount of LFPing healers per LFPing DD is now lower than ever, making it pretty hard to get a party started for those DDs that are trying to get those last 10 levels before entering abyssea.

Please do not reply with "lol you should just keywhore ur job". Keywhoring is extremely boring, and I cannot believe SE *really* wanted everyone to keywhore their jobs instead of trying to make normal parties.

Why are healers unbalanced in the way that they can contribute heavily to an alliance of players that are 30 levels above them, when DDs are left with not a chance to do anything useful at all, except pop chests, which any job, any level could do? I think this is unbalanced.

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COR has to be the lowest level job you can be while being useful. thier buffs does not depend on skill and what not.

a cor can give attack roll at 14 just as well a 90 does, they get refersh at 40. If you where a cor and knew someone and pt was openmided you could be cor in a merit party as low as 40.

I think other people have said this but mage jobs always begain being useful for any event before melee. it would go bard being the second lowest level to do an event ot be useful, then healer, then magic DD if they where good, then melee, then tank. If people where open minded, the leech bard in a merit party could be as low as 55 ( the one that does ballad and cure support) the only issues with that is lacking curaga II, you would need 60 bard for that. Even though bards get march II at 60 and Valor Minuet IV at 63 the puller bard till needs 72~ to land elgy and Lullaby.

anyways a bard could be fully useful at event/ merit party as low as 55 while being 63+ would be perfferd.

for healer it depends, it could be as high as 75 for full shell and bar merits. at the very min I would say 61 for cure V.

DD nukers can start 65-75 depending what the event is. DD nukers where not even wanted for merit parties so hard to pin that on them. for abyssea you would need around level 70 for level corrlation and spells:
69 Firaga III
70 Water IV
71 Blizzaga III

for SCH nuker would just need to be slighty higher then a BLM like in the case of water IV it is 70 for BLM and 71 for SCH.

DD needs level corrlatation for melee acc and damage so it was useally perffered them to be 75. There was also gear you get to use as well as level corrlation to be useful. abyssea for DD may start around 70 depending atmas but i really think the exptation would be 75

for tank you need max evade skill/ shield/ level corrlation to evade hits easier and not to get hit as hard and so on. so tanks would be most hurt. so 75 or gtfo. tanks are not needed in abyssea party but I am more speaking on old ffxi to get across a point.

who can be lowest level > role that needs to be highest

COR>BRD>healer (whm)> DD magic> DD melee > tank.

hard to pinpoint RDM due to versatility. RDM depended on sub to cure so if you needed say.

anyways point is the issue in OP always existed, even back as late as 2003 when the game was first open to NA comp.

this issue is hard to "fix" and someting I would not put time in as a programer. it is just a side effect this game has with its job system. you are asking a bit much to "fix" this issue

Actually, not quite: Here's a quote from the wiki:

The exact potency of Phantom Roll results can be reduced for the receiving players if they are of a level higher than the Corsair. (ie, a level 75 job would receive a smaller attack bonus from Chaos Roll from a level 14 Corsair than they would from a 75 Corsair with the same number result) However, the Corsair still receives full potency. (ie. A party of 75+ receiving Evoker's Roll from a level 50 Corsair will lose the effect 1 1/2 minutes before the Corsair will)

Source Link

EDIT: Oh, and a mage is a useful healer for abyssea exp alliances the moment they have both Haste and Cure4.

Well, then I want my WHM to be able to competently Melee. Have you ever taken a WHM to FoV to solo crap? Possible, yes. As efficient as doing it on a DD, No.

The OP's complaint is just more crap I see from people who don't look at the OVERALL balance of jobs. They look at how something doesn't work for them. But never contemplate how the other job may be weak in areas that they are strong. Plus, you'll notice, this all revolves around Abyssea. Try doing something that doesn't involve Abyssea. Or, level a WHM if you want to get in there so bad at a lower level.

p.s. - This was also true of Dynamis. Healers were more desirable at a lower level than DD. Add to that, everyone and their mother has a DD.

p.p.s. - I'll call you a Wahhhmbulance since you are apparently in great pain.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Actually, not quite: Here's a quote from the wiki:

The exact potency of Phantom Roll results can be reduced for the receiving players if they are of a level higher than the Corsair. (ie, a level 75 job would receive a smaller attack bonus from Chaos Roll from a level 14 Corsair than they would from a 75 Corsair with the same number result) However, the Corsair still receives full potency. (ie. A party of 75+ receiving Evoker's Roll from a level 50 Corsair will lose the effect 1 1/2 minutes before the Corsair will)

Source Link

EDIT: Oh, and a mage is a useful healer for abyssea exp alliances the moment they have both Haste and Cure4.

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hmm i guess i was quoting more then exp though to explain a point.

the point is this is not worth the time "fixing"

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

p.s. - This was also true of Dynamis. Healers were more desirable at a lower level than DD. Add to that, everyone and their mother has a DD.

p.p.s. - I'll call you an Wahhhmbulance since you are apparently in great pain.

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yes that is what i was explaining.

I think there's an even larger reason: The imbalance between magic-users and DDs in this game.

I mean, if you take a real look and balanced magic-users vs. DD, the magic-users would be more effective in more situations pretty much across the board.

Your complaints are actually a statement about far more than Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

I think there's an even larger reason: The imbalance between magic-users and DDs in this game.

I mean, if you take a real look and balanced magic-users vs. DD, the magic-users would be more effective in more situations pretty much across the board.

Your complaints are actually a statement about far more than Abyssea.

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what? magic damage was inefficient and slow when melee are buffed ( cor/brd/ atma for abyssea). Always was like that, people had a great dependency on magic damage because it was “easier” and “safer”. Like with kirin zerg, if something goes wrong you are screwed out of a pop, but with nuke and kite if a blm dies who cares? Also you have smn damage, if gardua takes hate and dies how does that screw up your fight? if a melee dies you have damage lost.

The number of meaningful fights in which magic or damage-at-distance are required far outnumber the ones which simply can be zerged by melees to death.

Losing a mage is much more important in many of those cases than losing a melee.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

The number of meaningful fights in which magic or damage-at-distance are required far outnumber the ones which simply can be zerged by melees to death.

Losing a mage is much more important in many of those cases than losing a melee.

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really? PW adds sure, thats all that comes to mind.

and the reason for that is due to the large number that needs AoE damage.

sea? sky? limb? ein? abyssea? farming?* melee > mage hands down.

*petty farming not the omgetfbbq blm,sch, rdm solos, though you have nin and dnc, and i do not think the subject of who solos better is relevant and something i do not want to really get deep into.

poeple have the view that you have because of this:

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Originally Posted by Rambus

what? magic damage was inefficient and slow when melee are buffed ( cor/brd/ atma for abyssea). Always was like that, people had a great dependency on magic damage because it was “easier” and “safer”. Like with kirin zerg, if something goes wrong you are screwed out of a pop, but with nuke and kite if a blm dies who cares? Also you have smn damage, if gardua takes hate and dies how does that screw up your fight? if a melee dies you have damage lost.

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BLMs purpose is for sleep, stun and damage second. their damage is more of a helper, not a dependency, for the most part.

this does not really applay to heavy melee resistant mobs like avatar pimes or elementals or something. there is even magic immune mobs though, like that one sea nm. BLM all you do is DoT the thing and maybe stun? I do not remember I have not done sea in a while, but blms could not do much to it when you have them for bigger purposes for other things while that thing is on the way.

when you say loose a mage, you are talking about DD magic specifically correct? not whms or something? When you have one blm and it dies and you need it for stun it hurts because of stun recasts, but I do not think you're talking about that.

Simple, how often do you resist a heal? never, so it always procs, therefore always has a chance to yield a skill-up. Considering that skill doesn't have that profound of an effect on cure potency a healer will be welcome even if their cure isn't healing for as much as a 90. Add in Atma and it's even easier.

Conversely, for most DD to work they have to get in the mob's face, making you much more likely to die, and tying up healing resources when you do. In addition, unlike healing, your target is trying NOT to get hit, and if they out-level you that much they should be able to dodge your swing. Now, you can Atma/gear/cruor buff/temp item, but eventually your skill gap will show.

There's also the fact that aby groups also have difficulties getting healers (most players just wanting to say "did you see how much I hit that for?!"), so they make efforts to level mages up and get them top-flight Atma so they can function.

Lastly, with so many DD constantly LFP, and many of them at effective levels, unless it's something organized through your social shell specifically to get one or more DD levelled there's no incentive for a former to take someone who can't do much versus someone who presumably can. Too many low-level players mean that the few AT level have to work twice or more as hard, and take more lumps to make the party effective.

Only advice? Form your own party, preferably a Fell Cleave one. Attract healers by calling it a feet party and give them lotting rights in your group. And don't be afraid to tell someone that they can't come on their 37 war, they have to bring their 90 rdm because you have too many leechers, yourself included, but healers are a need.

This is kinda-off-topic-but-kinda-related in to new players and Abyssea.

I'm glad the Dev Team enacted a level 30 requirement for entry. Without barriers such as mission progress or a high-level job, the low barrier for entry automatically places Abyssea as among some of the game's most inclusive content. This may seem irrelevant, but here's why it is not.

I'd imagine many of today's new players have friends already playing FFXI at a high level. It's not hard to level to 30, and once a new player does this, they have access to Abyssea and can adventure within with their friends. It may not mean much to jaded vets like us, but to a new player, it must be a trip wandering around such dangerous zones with a huge assortment of nifty NMs.

Let's take this a step further. Depending on the chosen job, some of these new players can actually help their friends due to atma effects. Imagine for a moment that your RL friend joined the game and plays a level 34 WHM. Would you tell them to buzz off if they wanted to tag along and enjoy the ride? I'd hope not! And get this, a level 34 WHM can cure most status effects like a level 90 mage.

For those who started playing before Abyssea, FoV, and Level Sync, think about this for a second - it's currently possible for a new player to level from 30 to the level cap without joining any more traditional exp parties and instead level entirely by playing the game in Abyssea with friends. And I'm not talking about leeching in exp alliances - just running around farming lights and killing NMs. Think about it. This would be an almost inconceivable idea a few years ago.

I think it's cool.

Carry on~

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Dear SE, why are level 60 healers useful in abyssea, while lv60 DDs are useless?

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For the same reason that low level healers have been useful in every other event since the beginning of time while low level DDs are useless. Don't single out abyssea when this is something that has happened since the game came out.

lol you should just keywhore ur job

very good point! this has been the problem for mage/melee for years.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

I'd imagine many of today's new players have friends already playing FFXI at a high level. It's not hard to level to 30, and once a new player does this, they have access to Abyssea and can adventure within with their friends. It may not mean much to jaded vets like us, but to a new player, it must be a trip wandering around such dangerous zones with a huge assortment of nifty NMs.

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it hurts people that start and have no friends.

that issue was posted in the new player section before.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

For the same reason that low level healers have been useful in every other event since the beginning of time while low level DDs are useless. Don't single out abyssea when this is something that has happened since the game came out.

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I would not say that, i think WHM had OP damage at one point before NA comp had it.